ALPHA (word discussion)

The difference between dogs living among one another in packs and living with us in homes it that other dogs very rarely make rules that go agains the natural instincts of dogs. I'd say probably never. We make rules for our dogs all the time that go totally against the natural instincts of our dogs. This is one of the many reasons that I find comparing our dogs to feral dog packs not very useful.

I'm realizing the same thing, dgriego. It's semantics. Tomato, to-mah-to. It's like during WW1, it was called "shell-shock". These days it's called "post traumatic stress disorder".

Dictator has a negative connotation. But I am the authority in the house. I do dictate how things are going to be run. I make the rules. And of course I teach the dogs what I want before expecting them to comply, but expect them to comply, I do.

Alpha has a negative connotation to some. But all I mean is teacher, leader, provider, rule-maker, protector, comforter, mom.

And dominance and submissive are a matter of degrees and methods. We all dominate our dogs and they are submissive to us. If they're at all well-behaved and not acting entirely by their own will, they are submitting to our rules.

It's just that if I say, "I am Alpha", people have all kinds of associations in their minds with that word and they assume a picture of me hanging my dog by the leash, needing to feel my power and basically being a big jerk. Does that mean I should quit using the words that I'm comfortable with, that have meaning to me?

Maybe I'm just being stubborn or perhaps I gravitate toward the KISS concept (Keep It Simple, Stupid) but Alpha works just fine for my purposes. And I really hate having to go into the defensive and be all apologetic when people start assuming that I mistreat my dogs. I guess when I get tired of explaining and defending, I'll just use "leader". But something tells me that's not going to be accepted either...

How much should I change my language to be sure everyone else is comfortable?

Four
 
 I do not think you should have to change your language so as not to offend. No one should. I doubt we will ever come together as one since we all have somewhat different opinions and in some cases radically different opinions.
 One of the purposes of the post was a hope that by discussing the words them selves we might be able to come a little closer together in that we all understand we want what is best for our dogs and for dogs in general.
 Also so that we can all see that not everyone that may use CM language (and a lot of that language was around before he came) is lording it over their dogs using abusive methods etc.
We can also agree that the world is full of fools, many of which will watch 15 minutes of a show and then go and do something stupid with their dog, thinking they now have the answer. There are also fools (I have seen them) that stand and click, click, click and then ask why isn#%92t my dog responding to the clicker? When asked have you worked with the clicker? Does you dog understand that when it clicks he will receive something good? No someone told me that dogs will respond to your commands if you use a clicker."
 There are fools on all sides, and there is risk involved for those fools and their dogs. People who choose to sling their dog on the floor after it growled at them, because they saw CW perform an alpha roll may get bit, their dogs may suffer for their stupidity. People who think clickers are magic buttons will get frustrated and think their dog is stupid and the dog may suffer for it.
 

And who teaches those rules to the dogs? how the dogs know is "rude" to take something away from them? were they born knowing that?

 
yes, they were born knowing that.
Most of my interactiosn with dogs is teaching them to NOT act like dogs.

Call it resource guarding, call it dominance, call it a bad hair day, the issue is still the same. He is telling me that he does not respect me at that moment nor does he think I am in a position to ask him to vacate the bed.

 
no, this is not a respect issue. He is acting like a "normal" dog and is telling you that you being really rude by dog rules, and he is also telling you that you haven't trained him well enough.
Your response should be to work harder at training him to jump off the bed on command, not to "make him respect you".
Using force on a dog who is resource guarding usually makes the problem worse.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

yes, they were born knowing that.

 
Ok so can you tell me why they "were born" thinking is "rude" to take something away, and why they  DO NOT think is "rude" if you dont let them poop inside the house? 

You train them to associate things they formerly thought were rude with better stuff. Every dog thinks its perfectly A-OK to poop in the house unless you show them that actually pooping out side is way way better through rewarding them for doing it. You train a dog to happily get off the bed by showing them that it's way way better to get off the bed on command than to not.

Ok so can you tell me why they "were born" thinking is "rude" to take something away, and why they DO NOT think is "rude" if you dont let them poop inside the house?

 
cause they are dogs?  most dogs care very little about where they poop; humans care a lot about where dogs poop; most puppies happily accept instruction about where you'd prefer them to poop, cause they don't really care.
Their natural behaviors they are inborn with developed eons ago when they were scavengers hanging around human groups. Many of their natural behaviors are rather maladapted to modern living. Thus one must work hard at teaching dogs to not-act like "normal" dogs.

Call it resource guarding, call it dominance, call it a bad hair day, the issue is still the same. He is telling me that he does not respect me at that moment nor does he think I am in a position to ask him to vacate the bed.

I do not agree with this.  If the issue is "dominance" then communicating with the dog holistically that you are "leader" will solve the issue w/o necessarily needing to address it directly.  If the issue is resource guartding, where dominance makes notajot of difference then you can prove you are "leader" all you like and you will STILL have a dog who believes its perfectly within his rights to hang on to his comfy spot on the bed.

The issue is not that the dog who does not want to move off the bed does not respect you (general "you").  It is more true to say that he thinks you don't respect HIM; he is reminding you of your manners and he is doing so in the politest way he can.  It is probably true that he does not think you are in any position to ask him to move.  That doesn't mean he doesn't respect you.  He feels that you are.... how can I put this.... making an unreasonable request?  being rude? being a bully? 

He may even be responding fearfully, expecting to be corrcted, shoved or shouted at..... with a great many dogs I do think this is the case.  This again has nothing to do with dominance.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
Most of my interactiosn with dogs is teaching them to NOT act like dogs.

[sm=idea.gif] Ooohhh! Okay. [sm=happy.gif]

Well, no wonder we can't come to agreement! [sm=lol.gif] I didn't know that was a goal. That is NOT what my relationship and interaction with my dogs is about at all. If I didn't want dogs, I would have had kids or something else. I want them to act like dogs as much as they can within the framwork of a functional human household.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your teaching goals, it's just not the same as mine and I can let go of trying to explain myself or understand your position further. Thanks for that clarity! [sm=happy.gif]

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

cause they are dogs?  most dogs care very little about where they poop; humans care a lot about where dogs poop; most puppies happily accept instruction about where you'd prefer them to poop, cause they don't really care.

 
They dont care because you taught them from puppyhood thats how it is in YOUR world, not the "dogs world", if you teach from puppyhood that you can take things away then they will think thats how it is in this earth
 
If you dont teach anything and you let them be obsessed with a toy, food, your underwear, etc then dont expect them to give it away once you realize he is growling at you, dont blame it on the "dogs nature"
 
Alphas do that, alphas are not dictators, alphas teach the rules that are needed to follow, no, they were NOT born knowing, you are there to let them know and alpha does NOT mean be mean while you are doing it
 
Just like you always say "just train them what to do", my question is, if you didnt train them to give the things back, why then according to you is "rude" to take it away? no, is not "rude" in the "dogs world", you just didnt teach him that
 

Well, I live in a city so it's very important for my dogs to not do what comes naturally to them much of the time. They aren't allowed to poop and pee wherever they want, they aren't allowed to go up and sniff every person/dog/lamp post they see, they aren't allowed to claim whatever item of food or resting place they get to first, I'd rather they not vocalize whenever they feel like it, nor wander my neighborhood scavenging for scraps, nor chase everything they see that moves (including most especially, my cats but also cars and kids). Conrad is not allowed to posture to and size up every other dog he meets nor administer snaps and nips to things that come up behind him and scare him. They are expected to slow down their natural walking paces considerably and walk on a four foot tether without straining against it.

I ask a lot of my dogs. I know I do. In order for them to safely live in a modern urban context, I have to work with them to train them out of their natural, instinctual behaviors.

ORIGINAL: FourIsCompany

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
Most of my interactiosn with dogs is teaching them to NOT act like dogs.

[sm=idea.gif] Ooohhh! Okay. [sm=happy.gif]

Edited because i got what she was trying to say

I think you are both taking mp's words the wrong way, but I'll let her come clear it up if that's necessary at all.

Just so we all know, I wasn't being sarcastic at all. I really mean that we have different goals with our dogs and that's entirely ok with me. I was trying to understand MP based on MY goals, which are clearly different than hers. And I even understand her better through all this. (I think) []