The Blame Game - It's not my fault! Excuses, excuses, excuses...

ORIGINAL: sillysally


I don't you are ever going to get away from certain highly opinionated individuals locking horns over certain subjects on any board like this though.  Frankly, I learn a lot from those discussions though.  I would hate to see them go away for good....

I'd hate to see them go, too. My only point was that even in a heated debate there is a line...sometimes that lines gets crossed. I learn more from a debate than from everyone agreeing with each other, because you see both sides of the story. Maybe the problem lies in the fact that different people will have differing ideas on just where that line should be drawn.

Hi SillySally,
 
When I first read your original post I wondered why did she get a dog.  What was the purpose, what was the need.  A St. Bernard no less.  I think that question has to be answered along with defining the expectations of the owner.
 
Your post did remind of Brutus, a St Bernard, whose existence was being chained to a tree in a backyard.  I was only 12, 13, and 14 during this time (and this is decades ago) but I gave him a little life by asking permission to take him on walks.  We had some good times together by evidence of Brutus still being in my memory. 
 
Given that you have the same or better persuasive people skills as me, the best thing to do is focus on the dog to give it a better life.  And that just might be a walk, playdates with your dogs, or a weekend outing.  Work on the friend to give up the dog. 

Doing the RIGHT THING for the dog DOES.

And, my friends, theirin lies the rub.  [sm=hardhat-black.gif]  How passionate we get when we think the dog is not having a good go of it.  I am never on any other page than "dog's best interest page".  If anyone thinks that isn't true, have a whack at me, but don't expect my principles to cave.

Interesting thought about making a training program more rewarding for the human.  I believe there are limits we encounter. One of those limits is that some training may take a while and not yield immediate "wow!" results. That's a limit for some people. They don't get instant gratification and so whatever it is must be no good. I can see beyond that but it is because of the way I was raised. Part of being a grown-up is doing things that are necessary, even if there is no immediate reward, even if there is no particular desire to do the thing. You suck it up and quit crying and do what you are supposed to do. The sooner you get done, the sooner it will be done. I don't get great joy out of washing the dishes or mowing the lawn. I certainly don't get paid for it. But I do it because it has to be done. The reward is clean dishes and a well-kept yard. The same could be said with dog training. There are simply going to be some tedious things to deal with and yes, a certain amount of savvy to know progress or read doggy language. And a willingness to accept progress, even in small amounts. Some things are just tough. OTOH, I hear it's easier to train goldfish to swim around in a bowl.[]
 

I hear it's easier to train goldfish to swim around in a bowl.

Well, apparently that depends on whether you want "wow" results from the fish or are happy if they just swim around.
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/30

[sm=drinking47.gif]

Shall we blame the fins or the bulging eyes?

How come you don#%92t take into consideration my Petro who is not formally obedience trained

 
I don't think Silly Sally was speaking of you or the exceptional Petro. But, in general, I agree with her. If a person gets a dog, expect to need and do training, whether it's as immediately gratifying as a Snickers bar or not. Nor would I imagine that all of your dogs are untrained. I think you just like debating.[]

How do we teach people who are at best utterly indifferent to the issue?

 
I may have accidently done something like that last Saturday. We were at PetSmart and I was showing off what Shadow could do. This group of women, who did not give off the aura of educated dog fanciers, asked, "How did you do that?" I brought out my clicker and said, "With this remote control." Then, in a simple language as possible with a demonstration of sit, I showed them exactly when to use it and that it is always linked with a treat or reward. One of them said, "Wait, I have heard of that clicker thing" in the same way that I might say "I've heard of Jakarta, Indonesia" because of someone I know who lives there.
 
The idea is to not totally alienate someone. Otherwise, I too, can get a bit short-tempered if I see someone willfully ignoring what is necessary and right in front of their face. My best options then are to either walk away or, if possible, nicely ask how they arrive at their conclusions.

diametrically opposite.

 
I think you get points for sneaking in "diametrically". I've used that word in math and physics.

Even though I had been around dogs in my life, when I got Shadow, I was WOEFULLY ignorant. But I was not WILLFULLY ignorant. I'd spend up to 3 hours a night reading everything I could find and rise to the challenge. Again, before getting Shadow, woefully ignorant was an accurate description of me. Perhaps some people take umbrage with the use of the word, "woefully." I don't. And I let it go. I have learned quite a bit and will continue learning as time goes by.

I agree. I've been here almost two years and not seen it.....

 
You know what's interesting? All the times I debated in dog training before, not because I wanted to be difficult or always take the opposing view just to debate and "win," people such as Spiritdogs would exhibit the patience of Job and re-explain over and over and simply ask that I try this or that. When I would join in a debate, I might start out simply trying to point out an exception only to find that either it wasn't an exception, or further study showed I was wrong, or that my perception of the the subject was wrong. I was JQP, and ignorant, which to me, is a lack of knowledge. What separates me from other JQPs is my willingness to learn and my cross to bear, the inescapable algebraic logic I apply to everything. Some things take me longer to learn. And every single time a person, especially a newbie with no particular political agenda to feed, comes on with a serious question, the dog pros here respond in kind tones with all the best advice they can muster. But, at the risk of canipromorphizing (?), if you poke a trainer long enough, you might get an air snap.[]

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

Barbara Woodhouse is honored on a page of Millan's site, sharing her notion that “There is no such thing as a difficult dog, only an inexperienced owner.”

so people agree with this statement?
I don't. Sometimes, not very often, it's clearly NOT the owner's fault, or even the previous owner's fault.

How different is the sentiment expressed by Woodhouse and Millan from Karen Pryor's, "Don't Shoot the Dog"?
Here's yet another way to say it, by Antoine de Saint-Exupery, "You are responsible, forever, for what you have tamed."

Tamed as in domesticated?

I thought dogs domesticated themselves...for our scraps.

 Then ended up with kibble.

lol JM, too cute [] We are a literal people!

Part of my point is that expressions like those express wider concepts. When taken too literally, they don't make sense, and aren't always terribly meaningful. Saint-Exupery's aphorism wasn't talking about domesticating wolves, but about the responsibility we take when we bind another's nature to us. It's an ironic statement, because of his very turbulent relationship with his wife.

Similarly, Karen Pryor's title refers to, I think it is, 8 possible responses to not getting the outcome you seek. One extreme is to blame others, the other is to take full responsibility (sorry if I massacred that, if you can correct me, I'd be grateful).

The english language is so hard and chunky []. In Chinese ideographs, whole concepts are contained within only one or two characters. For example, the concept "landscape" is created by the characters for "water" and "mountain". Chinese landscape paintings typically depict mountains and water, usually a river. Mountains represent long life, and water the sea of happiness. In harmony together, mountains and water symbolise a long happy life. So, "landscape" connotes "long life."

ORIGINAL: ron2

Even though I had been around dogs in my life, when I got Shadow, I was WOEFULLY ignorant. But I was not WILLFULLY ignorant. I'd spend up to 3 hours a night reading everything I could find and rise to the challenge. Again, before getting Shadow, woefully ignorant was an accurate description of me. Perhaps some people take umbrage with the use of the word, "woefully." I don't. And I let it go. I have learned quite a bit and will continue learning as time goes by.

 
Ron, I am right there with ya - me too!!  I have had dogs ALL MY LIFE and until I got River did I actually take an interest in "training".  Why?  Because he wasn't the easy obedient, subordinate mutt I always had.  He had issues and was a large dog.
 
I don't know about most of you but I can honestly say that every person I know who had a dog, is getting a dog or has a pup already does not go to training classes, has not thought about training classes and probably won't attend a training class.  I see 3 pups everyday at my son's school when I pick him up.  At first, all the mom's loved bringing there beautiful cute little puppies with them to pick up there children.  Now, about 6 months later you see them less and less and less.  When I ask the Mom's where Fido is?  I always get the same answer, he is pain in the butt now, he jumps, he doesn#%92t do well on leash, and he doesn#%92t do well in the car - so woefully or willfully ignorant?  I think woefully...  Fortunately they are all labs and probably will be come great dogs as they mature so they are lucky.  I had myself a purebred large breed working dog and realized I needed help, this dog was different than any dog I ever owned and did what Ron did, I read, I went to training and I educated myself.  All my future dogs will be trained as pups and before the problems develop.  Was I willfully ignorant before, no not at all?
 

ORIGINAL: ron2

You know what's interesting? All the times I debated in dog training before, not because I wanted to be difficult or always take the opposing view just to debate and "win," people such as Spiritdogs would exhibit the patience of Job and re-explain over and over and simply ask that I try this or that. When I would join in a debate, I might start out simply trying to point out an exception only to find that either it wasn't an exception, or further study showed I was wrong, or that my perception of the the subject was wrong. I was JQP, and ignorant, which to me, is a lack of knowledge. What separates me from other JQPs is my willingness to learn and my cross to bear, the inescapable algebraic logic I apply to everything. Some things take me longer to learn. And every single time a person, especially a newbie with no particular political agenda to feed, comes on with a serious question, the dog pros here respond in kind tones with all the best advice they can muster. But, at the risk of canipromorphizing (?), if you poke a trainer long enough, you might get an air snap.[]

 
I am not a debater.  I draw a distinction between debating and dialogue where one is a contest of opposing viewpoints while the other is a discussion of ideas or opinions with the intent of reaching an amicable settlement.  I don#%92t even like it when it is characterized as a challenge because I am giving the member a platform to convince and prove their position to the absolute certainty or in many cases that their opinion should be qualified.  Most recently the forum was referenced as a “chat room” which seemed out of line with the serious discussion on the welfare of the dog that take place here.
 
Ron2, I am happy that you have had progressive, rich, and rewarding experiences with Shadow (and your cat) and with people such as Spiritdogs.  It is also a pleasure reading your post because you articulate your experiences so well.  I am also glad that you refer to yourself as one the JQPs and don#%92t create upteen different levels within.  For me, I have a different life, different home situation, and almost the same values.  But one thing about me is I am on the positive side, the good side as I perceive it to be, and I root for the underdog no matter how lost the cause.  Because I think I am on the positve side doesn't mean that all others are wrong or on the negative.  I don't think in those terms.  For the issues that I am passionate about, I look at myself as a leader and it just takes people a long time to see and understand my point of view.