The Blame Game - It's not my fault! Excuses, excuses, excuses...

I meet "JQP" at the dog training club often-- they come in for basic obedience class. Most of them never get anywhere because they don't grasp the concept that they have to practice at home; they somehow think just coming to class will "train the dog". The instructors even hand out lists of homework to practice, and it never gets done. By class two you can clearly see who has been working and who hasn't, and who is going to stop showing up by class four and whose dog is probably going to end up at the shelter in a few months.
And these are the ones who actually enroll in a class. And believe me, the instructors are nothing but patient and non-confrontational. Maybe they shouldn't be; maybe some of these dog owners need a good kick in the butt.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

maybe some of these dog owners need a good kick in the butt.

 
What you give is what you get.  With a good kick in the butt you may get something unpleasant on your shoe while if you smile you may get a smile back. 
 
My parents sent me to school where I would learned from professionals not only the 3 R's, but manners, socializing, and discipline.  How come that never caught on in the dog training world?  I can find some other way to bond with the dog.  You know maybe because the dog owner would have such a pleasant experience they would add another to the house, and that would maybe reduce dogs in shelters.  Just a silly thought. 

if you poke a trainer long enough, you might get an air snap.

Don't worry ron, even if provoked, rarely go past #2 on the Bite-O-Meter.  [sm=rofl.gif]


As a trainer, I am not interested in driving students out of my classes, so I DO smile, but I also do not back down on a principle of why I think they are acting appropriately or inappropriately from a training and behavior standpoint.  I am not interested in "an amicable settlement" if it means that I placate someone who will use that as a license to inappropriately discipline a dog, or use a piece of equipment that is inappropriate for their dog's situation, or anything else.  I will teach the class, and the individual, as if I thought the dog's life depended upon it, and, as mudpuppy pointed out, sometimes it does.  My goal is for all my students to have the best dog of their lives, and for the dog to keep his "forever home".  It's my goal for all of you, too. []

My parents sent me to school where I would learned from professionals not only the 3 R's, but manners, socializing, and discipline. How come that never caught on in the dog training world?

Who's saying it hasn't?  Again, I don't recall reading anyone in this thread ranting about being flamed by their trainers, nor have I read anyone advocating that we should not use manners, socializing, and discipline when dealing with dogs.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  It seems like you're trying to set yourself apart, but apart from what?

ORIGINAL: Liesje

My parents sent me to school where I would learned from professionals not only the 3 R's, but manners, socializing, and discipline. How come that never caught on in the dog training world?

Who's saying it hasn't?  Again, I don't recall reading anyone in this thread ranting about being flamed by their trainers, nor have I read anyone advocating that we should not use manners, socializing, and discipline when dealing with dogs.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  It seems like you're trying to set yourself apart, but apart from what?

No kidding.  I have been to training class after training class led by very, very polite, positive (as in the attitude), wonderful trainers.  I have watched training pros on here giving good, free advice repeatedly to people who were often very ungrateful.

What makes me worry about the more knowlegable in the dog world is the sometimes subtle, sometime obvious derision of the infamous "JQ Public" in general. At the risk of a bad pun - I'd have to say things can get quite "dogmatic" []. We judge those who don't feed the acceptable foods, do the acceptable training or buy their dog from acceptable sources and consider them beyond help if they don't automatically have knowledge that most of us spent years accumulating (and are still learning) Sometimes we all get so carried away trying to be perfect that we forget that "good enough" is perfectly acceptable in most situations. I struggle with this myself all the time.

Yes, there are TONS of people that are ignorant and WANT to stay that way (I know quite a few "Professional Victims"). But dismissing every uninformed "JQP" as just another unworthy dog owner isn't fair to the owners or the dogs. Even if we only voice a bias in our minds it WILL prejudice our perception and consequently our manner toward others. Unfortunately, there are people that make it really, REALLY hard to keep an unbiased attitude sometimes. [:@]

You also have to choose which battles are worth fighting. As my Marine friend puts it "Is this the hill you want to die on?" Are we worried about something truly harmful or dangerous? Or just upset they they aren't doing something the "better" way? Is setting the lofty goal of "perfect" dog-owner worth alienating those that are willing to achieve the more attainable goal of "good enough" dog owners?

ORIGINAL: ron2

...If a person gets a dog, expect to need and do training...,
...Nor would I imagine that all of your dogs are untrained...

 
Ron2, you missed my point by you characterizing a dog that is trained versus untrained as good versus bad, or responsible owner versus irresponsible owner.  Most of us train our dog in obedience in order to control the dog and avoid bad behavior or getting into bad situations.  For example, if the dog jumps on people the dog could be trained to sit when approached.  Petro does not jump on people so why is it necessary to teach the dog to sit.  There are other reasons to teach a dog to sit but I am just using this one as an example.  So for me in a certain sense, Petro is ‘trained#%92.  The dog owner is the one that knows the dog and the home situation and as caretaker should not be judged but cordially helped.  For example, I believe my property is escaped proof but I make mistakes, seldom but mistakes do happen.  Marvin the hound got out one time but came back to me because he was taught the hound version of the ‘come#%92 command.  I know the importance of the ‘come#%92 command.  That understanding did not come from a bad experience but from the 1st day of obedience class.  So by attending that 1st day, the instructor did good by possibly saving many dog#%92s life.
 
In my opinion the role of the dog trainer is to present to the student information and techniques in a learning atmosphere.  Balanced between solemn and light-hearted.  It may be sometimes the awareness of the aura in the classroom is not taken into consideration.      
  
As I stated in my post, I am not a debater, I do dialogue.  In Spiritdogs post, she debates.  There is nothing in between the two except parallel posting which is effective in getting a point of view expressed.
 
Liesje and Sillysally,  my simple post stated my parents sent me to class by myself and turned over the education and learning responsibility to a professional.  My silly post just asked why don#%92t dog trainers do the same.  I think I read PacLeader does this in his day care facilities.
 

ORIGINAL: DPU
But on this forum there is a constant bashing of JQP by the dog professionals.

DPU, do you mean when a newbie posts a question here and **Content Removed**

If that's what you mean, I can provide some links []

Well, this is your opinion.  In my opinion, she informs and educates. If she is "debating" you, or anyone else, she does it for the lurkers who need to be aware of different aspects so as to make an informed decision.

Surely you are aware of that.  It has nothing to do with you.  I wouldn't take it personally.

  I don't think the OP's post was meant to turn this into an idog "blame game"...everyone has different posting  techniques and personalities.  If you don't like a person's personality or posting technique... block them.

Let's try to move forward.

  In Spiritdogs post, she debates.  There is nothing in between the two except parallel posting which is effective in getting a point of view expressed.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

ORIGINAL: DPU
But on this forum there is a constant bashing of JQP by the dog professionals.

DPU, do you mean when a newbie posts a question here and **Content Removed**
If that's what you mean, I can provide some links []

**Content Removed**   fail to realize that post like the one you have just made neither advance the situation towards a postive end nor add anything but needless conflict to a thread that is remaining pretty civil.

I think this thread is going quite well.  Let's keep it that way.[]

ORIGINAL: JM

I don't think the OP's post was meant to turn this into an idog "blame game"...everyone has different posting  techniques and personalities.  If you don't like a person's personality or posting technique... block them.

 
 
Hi JM,
 
I respect you and I give your forum posts consideration (dialogue).  Please don#%92t brand my post as being something that is personal in nature.  My post was about debate versus dialogue, or absolutes versus reaching understandings.  Please comment on the content of the post and not your take of the tone or a perceived personal conflict.  A conflict does not exist.   
 

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

DPU, do you mean when a newbie posts a question here and **Content Removed**
If that's what you mean, I can provide some links []

No, this is where a new person (1st post) creates a thread describing a specific dog behavior issue.  Everyone is welcoming and kind.  Some can't help with the problem but still join in to say welcome.  The threads are very nice to read.

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: ron2

...If a person gets a dog, expect to need and do training...,
...Nor would I imagine that all of your dogs are untrained...

Liesje and Sillysally,  my simple post stated my parents sent me to class by myself and turned over the education and learning responsibility to a professional.  My silly post just asked why don't dog trainers do the same.  I think I read PacLeader does this in his day care facilities.

I actually did take Jack to doggy daycare a lot before he started having elbow issues and will continue anfter he is healthy enough.  The thing is that you still need owner involvement in the process, just as you need parent involvement with kids (just ask any teacher).  The trainer can teach a puppy not to jump all day long, but if the owner allows jumping at home, the dog is likely still going to jump.  it's a great way to socialize and learn "doggy"manners though.  Any pup I get from here on out will spend lots of time at this particular day care.

Liesje and Sillysally, my simple post stated my parents sent me to class by myself and turned over the education and learning responsibility to a professional. My silly post just asked why don#%92t dog trainers do the same.

Well, I guess that's one way to do it, sign up for something and let someone else do the work.  A lot of trainers do board and train peoples' dogs, but I don't particularly like this method and won't use it with my dogs.  If I were purchasing a personal protection animal or some sort of law enforcement dog that was required to do very specific tasks a certain way, I'd make sure it was trained professionally, but I don't really think someone else has to be doing the basics for me.  As for the parent/kid analogy, my parents were the ones that taught me the basics like feeding myself, using the toilet, washing my hands, brushing my teeth.  A child can still have a good relationship with its parents and survive without an eduation, just like a dog can do just fine without advanced obedience or dog sports once the family has taught the basics.

ORIGINAL: JM

Well, this is your opinion.  In my opinion, she informs and educates. If she is "debating" you, or anyone else, she does it for the lurkers who need to be aware of different aspects so as to make an informed decision.

Surely you are aware of that.  It has nothing to do with you.  I wouldn't take it personally.

I don't think the OP's post was meant to turn this into an idog "blame game"...everyone has different posting  techniques and personalities.  If you don't like a person's personality or posting technique... block them.

Let's try to move forward.

  In Spiritdogs post, she debates.  There is nothing in between the two except parallel posting which is effective in getting a point of view expressed.

JM, thank you for recognizing the true spirit in which I "debate".  **Content Removed** Debate is not a dirty word until you make it dirty by personalizing a difference of opinion.  **Content Removed** , and I think sillysally's points are well taken.
This is how I define "debate" -  a discussion involving opposing viewpoints
This is how I define "dialog" - a conversation between people
Neither term has to suggest either an amicable "settlement" or a meltdown.