The Blame Game - It's not my fault! Excuses, excuses, excuses...

ORIGINAL: Liesje

But on this forum there is a constant bashing of JQP by the dog professionals. 

I've not seen this.  I've seen experienced dog trainers tell people that they are wrong.  Sorry, but to me that's a simple, objective reality, not a personal insult.  How will JQP realize there is a need for change and be willing to go forward if they never admit that they were wrong?  If you are doing something so wrong that you are actually injuring your dog physically and quite possibly damaging his psyche, wouldn't you hope that someone who knew better would point that out to you?  Just because they might be well-intentioned and are unintentionally damaging the dog does not excuse it one bit.   Intentions, excuses, and rationalizations mean nothing to the dog and if the dog is where we are concerned, then let's just give clear and concise advice when it is asked of us.

I agree.  I've been here almost two years and not seen it.....

ORIGINAL: Liesje

I've not seen this.  I've seen experienced dog trainers tell people that they are wrong.  Sorry, but to me that's a simple, objective reality, not a personal insult.  How will JQP realize there is a need for change and be willing to go forward if they never admit that they were wrong?  If you are doing something so wrong that you are actually injuring your dog physically and quite possibly damaging his psyche, wouldn't you hope that someone who knew better would point that out to you?  Just because they might be well-intentioned and are unintentionally damaging the dog does not excuse it one bit.   Intentions, excuses, and rationalizations mean nothing to the dog and if the dog is where we are concerned, then let's just give clear and concise advice when it is asked of us.

You are new so I must be successful in toning down the rhetoric.  []

I don't discount the responsibility of JQP dog owner.  I dispute the degree of harm to the dog that is portrayed here along with value judgments.  Just as we saw in a post in this thread, I was called indirectly irresponsible when in fact that was not the case.  Care to comment on that.

ORIGINAL: Benedict

Understand that here I am referring to people who are WILFULLY ignorant.

 
I need hard evidence and time before I can judge an individual as WILFULLY ignorant and if so I would not group them in a category.

I am not seeing it either. 

What I see is the same people (the dog professionals) continously answering the same questions about digging, mouthing, peeing, chewing, jumping, over and over and over and over and over and over and over again....and still give advice after they have covered the same topic 2 hours ago.

I consider that dedication.  So what if some personalities do come across as blunt and factual. If I answered the same question a gazillion times a day, I am sure my posts would come out the same.  Look at the deed...not the breed... 

I don't discount the responsibility of JQP dog owner. I dispute the degree of harm to the dog that is portrayed here along with value judgments. Just as we saw in a post in this thread, I was called indirectly irresponsible when in fact that was not the case. Care to comment on that.

I have no comment on what other people call you.  I'm not really sure what you're refering to so I'll leave it between you and whoever offended you.

All I can comment on is my experiences, which have been depressing to say the very least.  Each day at the shelter I see dogs who have been beaten, neglected, tortured, starved...damaged physically and mentally in any sick way imaginable.  So, I too disbute the degree of harm being applied by JQP.

ORIGINAL: DPU
I need hard evidence and time before I can judge an individual as WILFULLY ignorant and if so I would not group them in a category.

Anyone who does what Liesje describes below is a dog owner that is willfully ignorant of what a dog needs. The state of the dog IS hard evidence.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

All I can comment on is my experiences, which have been depressing to say the very least.  Each day at the shelter I see dogs who have been beaten, neglected, tortured, starved...damaged physically and mentally in any sick way imaginable.  So, I too disbute the degree of harm being applied by JQP.

OK, let me give a real life example....

I have a friend who has a St Bernard.  She got him from a byb at 5 weeks old.  She was having issues potty training and having him tear things up, I gave her one of Sally's crates.  He was rough with the kids and she was worried about how he would act when he was bigger, I gave her suggestions on how to get rid of the puppy biting and gave her the name of a training facility in our area that is close and cheaper then Petsmarty classes.

Eventually she began to punish him by smacking him on the nose  If he didn't sit, she'd smack him on the nose.  If he didn't come when called, she'd smack him on the nose.  She never showed any interest in leash training until he was draggin her around.  She just deals with that issue by not walking him.  She claims that "the older he gets, the dumber he gets."  I have told her repeatedly that giant breed dogs often are a bit slower to respond to commands, but not because they are dumb.  She insists that he is stupid.  DH and I have both worked with him on basic commands, and he most certainly *can* learn.  We have had him out with Jack hoping that he would learn things like sitting better by watching Jack do it when commanded.  We have done this IN FRONT of her and she has seen it.  She still claims he is stupid.  I have repestedly sung the praises and training books that one can get at the library and the training facility near her house.  She has the money to go to training classes, and the library is free.  She still just won't do it.

As a result, Louie the St. Bernard, who has no recall (probably due to being smacked on the nose because he didn't come fast enough), spends his days tied to the front porch on a ten foot horse lead rope

So, what do you do with a person like that?

So, what do you do with a person like that?

That's easy!  Smack 'em on the nose!
 
When they get their nose out of joint over the incident, reply "But you taught me that was the appropriate response when something was too dumb to listen"
 
Couldn't resist [sm=devil.gif]

ORIGINAL: Liesje

I have no comment on what other people call you.  I'm not really sure what you're refering to so I'll leave it between you and whoever offended you.

All I can comment on is my experiences, which have been depressing to say the very least.  Each day at the shelter I see dogs who have been beaten, neglected, tortured, starved...damaged physically and mentally in any sick way imaginable.  So, I too disbute the degree of harm being applied by JQP.

Quick comment on the first paragraph.  I am the person who stands in front of the big box store and ask people for money.  I am pretty resilient to attempts at trying to offend me. 

I have said this many times before that I can not do the type of volunteer work that you do.  A requirement for me is to get to know the dog and do everything in my power to rehab and place.  I know I am at the happy end of dog rescue because I see only happy things.  A dog improves in health.  A dog improves in behavior.  A dog that learns how to play with all size of people and other dogs.  I see a happy dog and the dog that I know will always be taken care of for the rest of its life.  A dog that makes some people smile when taken out in public. 

I know what I see may not be reflective of the full picture but my belief is that.  It has not been proven otherwise.  Could you be making generalized conclusions because of what you see? 

ORIGINAL: Liesje
All I can comment on is my experiences, which have been depressing to say the very least. Each day at the shelter I see dogs who have been beaten, neglected, tortured, starved...damaged physically and mentally in any sick way imaginable. So, I too disbute the degree of harm being applied by JQP.

Liesje,

I have so much respect for your work with dogs at the shelter. I'm going to start volunteering at a dog daycare next week, to learn more about dog-dog interactions through observation, and perhaps once I'm better equipped I'll try some shelter work, but I'm not sure my heart will be willing to bear it.

I do wonder abot the dogs you mention. How much history is taken at your shelter? How much specific information is gathered? At our local shelter, usually next to nothing is know about the dogs. When you meet a dog at your shelter, and observe his condition, do you also have a file that tells you his history?

ORIGINAL: JM

I am not seeing it either. 

What I see is the same people (the dog professionals) continously answering the same questions about digging, mouthing, peeing, chewing, jumping, over and over and over and over and over and over and over again....and still give advice after they have covered the same topic 2 hours ago.

I consider that dedication.  So what if some personalities do come across as blunt and factual. If I answered the same question a gazillion times a day, I am sure my posts would come out the same.  Look at the deed...not the breed... 

You're not visiting the right threads.

I can appreciate blunt and factual but not condescending, judgmental, and mean-spirited.  That tells me the bitterness comes from being stretched and it is a smart person that knows their capacity and stays within it.

Could you being making generalized conclusions because of what you see?

Obviously.  I generalize in the direction of the lowest common denominator because my main concern is for the dogs.  I've seen enough dogs in such poor conditions that if someone asks me for advice and what they are currently doing is very wrong, I will say so without low blows and personal jabs.  I will say "Doing X is the wrong way to handle the situation.  Please try this instead...."  or "Prongs should not be used on leash reactive dogs without the guidance of a professional.  You may want to try these collars instead..."  It's disturbing how quickly an initially well intentioned person putting a prong on a leash reactive dog ends up with an aggressive dog, and then starts beating their dog to control it, and then decides that their dog is just a bad dog and should be kept out in the yard, and then their dog comes into the shelter half starved, dog aggressive, with an embedded chain around it's neck, all the while the owner has decided the dog is stupid and mean and not deserving to live.

I can appreciate blunt and factual but not condescending, judgmental, and mean-spirited. That tells me the bitterness comes from being stretched and it is a smart person that knows their capacity and stays within it.

Well, that's all everyone here's been saying all along!  Nowhere in this thread has anyone advocated for being mean to the people that come here looking for advice.

ORIGINAL: Liesje
It's disturbing how quickly an initially well intentioned person putting a prong on a leash reactive dog ends up with an aggressive dog, and then starts beating their dog to control it, and then decides that their dog is just a bad dog and should be kept out in the yard, and then their dog comes into the shelter half starved, dog aggressive, with an embedded chain around it's neck, all the while the owner has decided the dog is stupid and mean and not deserving to live.

 
This happens in front of you and at the shelter?  I am shocked!

This happens in front of you and at the shelter? I am shocked!

An embedded collar takes weeks to months of neglect to get that way.