Dog Community

Posted : 5/31/2007 11:39:59 AM

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: sillysally

Well, you are SUPPOSED to train your dog, if you chose to get one. Unfortunately, most people see training the dog as something exta, when it is actually one of the dog's vital needs.

...I have no problem with dog professionals pushing basic training from the get go to new dog owns (vets, groomers, shelters, breeders, pet stores), I have no problem with professionals recommending training facilities to new owners. However, the fact remains that someone throws their hands up at the first failure and refuses to continue trying despite help from the trainer ( have taken several training classes with my dogs and EVERY instructor has been very positive and extremely helpful), or flat out does not care, what should the trainer do? Beg? Plead? Drag the owner back kicking and screaming?

How come you don't take into consideration my Petro who is not formally obedience trained. He got it on his own to be a well-behaved, potty trained, nicely socialized, and a friendly dog to people. So what if he doesn't do all these behaviors when I command him to do so. He is perfectly happy and content.

JQP is not asking the dog professional/trainer to hold their hand, prod, beg, plead, yell, talk down to, have parallel discussions, and most of all judge. What JQP ask the dog professional/trainer is to be treated AS IF they are the perfect learning student. Don't forget planting a seed in someone's mind will stay there until really needed. So if JQP initially doesn't get the priority of training and training early, when it is needed he will know what to do because of the this awareness as an option. I think the comment that was stated in another thread, leading by example is the best form of influencing JQP.

And every so often you have a kid born that quickly picks up reading and writing with little instruction. This doesn't mean that parents are not responsible for making sure their kids get to school.

Personally, I have met only one person who I would consider a "dog professional" who was rude to me (and between trainers, breeders, groomers, vets, as well as dog board people-that's a lot of people), and she was not a trainer, but a show lab breeder. I just ignored the behavior, gave her a mental "screw you," and moved on with my life. Seriously, there are people like that in all walks of life no matter what you do.

Do I think that professionals should automatically recommend training to all new dog owners? Sure, but even as a total "newbie" dog owner with a breed that is pretty much *never* recommended for a first time dog owner, I was greeted with nothing but helpfullness.....

DPU

Posted : 5/31/2007 11:43:02 AM

ORIGINAL: Benedict

I completely agree with this. But I stand by my distinction between "JQP" and "educated dog owner" so my question is this:

It's relatively easy to teach people who WANT to learn how to train their dogs. How do we teach people who are at best utterly indifferent to the issue?

Kate

The last sentence in my previous post. I don#%92t share your subdivisions of JQP. I have 7 brothers and 5 sisters. Each of us have different life experiences, maturity levels, education levels, and notions because of the times we grew up in. We are brothers and sisters that share and help each other out and it is a fair exchange. We don't rank each other say based on age. If we need professional help like in medicine, we go to the doctor.

It is simple for me. When I approach my dog peers, I make positive assumptions right off the bat and keep the positiveness going where I am the learner. I probe the reasoning and I share my experiences until eventually being the advisor.

Benedict

Posted : 5/31/2007 11:45:45 AM

ORIGINAL: sillysally

Do I think that professionals should automatically recommend training to all new dog owners? Sure, but even as a total "newbie" dog owner with a breed that is pretty much *never* recommended for a first time dog owner, I was greeted with nothing but helpfullness.....

I too have never personally encountered rudeness from anyone I would consider to be more knowledgeable than myself on dog ownership - but I have WITNESSED it more times than I care to count, both in person and on this forum.

spiritdogs

Posted : 5/31/2007 11:46:48 AM

So what if he doesn't do all these behaviors when I command him to do so.

Well, the trainer in me would respond, "What happens when the truck is headed straight for the dog and he chooses not to "come"??? Is the dog's "happiness" more important than safety then? Especially when, if people went to training class, and listened, the recall is one of the simplest behaviors to teach to a social animal.
Obviously, we have missed the boat in convincing even you, who purports to be a dog savvy rescuer, how important this is. How would you suggest that we, in a really nice way, get through to you and to JQP so that both of you take action? What would be the trigger that would make you respond?

Benedict

Posted : 5/31/2007 11:47:37 AM

ORIGINAL: DPU

I think the comment that was stated in another thread, leading by example is the best form of influencing JQP.

Whether you agree with my definition of JQP or not, people who have no wish to learn will not do so by example.

DPU

Posted : 5/31/2007 11:49:26 AM

ORIGINAL: sillysally

Do I think that professionals should automatically recommend training to all new dog owners? Sure, but even as a total "newbie" dog owner with a breed that is pretty much *never* recommended for a first time dog owner, I was greeted with nothing but helpfullness.....

Can't say your experience is not my experience. But on this forum there is a constant bashing of JQP by the dog professionals. I try to convey the good side of JQP and I get bashed. So we are in agreement that they should be the ones to change since they are out of the mainstream thinking.

DPU

Posted : 5/31/2007 11:57:07 AM

ORIGINAL: JM

Really?

ORIGINAL: DPU

JM, I am responding to your post because of your comment "a dog comes out of the box knowing how to act". Just moments before in another thread I described my Petro as being such a dog. He does none of behaviors in your list and I have not had to spend any time on obedience training or behavior modifications. Some dogs need work while some dogs need no work.

Well then maybe I should add one.....

My dog doesn't come when called....

Now Petro, one my Great Danes that I have had for 2 years, has never been instructed in obedience except for the come command.

Spiritdogs, I don't understand your post at all. The above post is on page 2 of this thread.

To all others, did you understand the meaning of my "AS IF" comment?

Liesje

Posted : 5/31/2007 12:02:37 PM

I'm just suggesting that we are potentially expecting too much sophistication in the inexperienced dog owner who, though an adult in many other ways, is a babe in the woods when it comes to animal work.

Maybe it would be helpful if we all clarified what we personally expect from a person who is going to transition from JQP (please refer to Kate's definition - someone who previously had no motivation to educate themselves about dog training and psychology) to an inexperience owner who is ready to take the plunge, so to speak...?

If a friend of mine were to get a dog and seemed to be at the point where she knew that she was inexperienced but ultimately desired the best for her future dog, this is what I would expect of her:

doing some research on the breed (if applicable), not a huge amount, but enough to realize that *breed* indicates more than just looks. (ie, don't pick a husky just b/c you want a wolfish dog)
a predetermined commitment to how much time they will spending exercising the dog beyond letting it free roam in the yard (1 hr walk a day? 2 short walks and a weekend hike? Training the dog to run with a bike?)
^ along with the above I would expect them to be open to understanding that free roaming in the yard is not always a substitute for exercise. When people roll their eyes that this notion, that puts you back to JQP, sorry.
an assumption that new dogs will require basic obedience training and a willingness to sign up for classes (our shelter requires proof of signing up before most of our dogs can be adopted)
an open mind as far as training methods an training tools; at least a realization that there are various methods and tools available

mudpuppy

Posted : 5/31/2007 12:05:55 PM

Barbara Woodhouse is honored on a page of Millan's site, sharing her notion that “There is no such thing as a difficult dog, only an inexperienced owner.”

so people agree with this statement?
I don't. Sometimes, not very often, it's clearly NOT the owner's fault, or even the previous owner's fault.
pet store puppy who simply cannot be housebroken. Dogs who are innately dog-aggressive. Dogs who are mentally ill. Dogs who are just plain stupid. Dogs who are way too smart.

DPU

Posted : 5/31/2007 12:08:32 PM

ORIGINAL: Benedict

Whether you agree with my definition of JQP or not, people who have no wish to learn will not do so by example.

Last week at work we had an All day All staff meeting and the agenda called for 3 groups to present their happenings in the Business Unit. One presentation was on the Learning Management System, the 2nd on Analyzing Research Data using SAS, and the last one was Second Life (virtual reality worlds). I like everyone else had no interest to learn. But I made the best of the moment and initiated questions followed up by words of interest like 'cool stuff'. This questioning became contagious to others and we ended up all having a great learning experience.

Benedict

Posted : 5/31/2007 12:09:28 PM

No, I don't agree with that statement either, mudpuppy. Just because a dog can develop issues as a result of it's owner, doesn't mean that all issues are the result of the owner.

sillysally

Posted : 5/31/2007 12:10:29 PM

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: sillysally

Do I think that professionals should automatically recommend training to all new dog owners? Sure, but even as a total "newbie" dog owner with a breed that is pretty much *never* recommended for a first time dog owner, I was greeted with nothing but helpfullness.....

Can't say your experience is not my experience. But on this forum there is a constant bashing of JQP by the dog professionals. I try to convey the good side of JQP and I get bashed. So we are in agreement that they should be the ones to change since they are out of the mainstream thinking.

Nope, change needs to come from both ends. Professionals should be recommending training from the get go to new owners (I'm actually not sure why vets and groomers don't do this automatically already--you'd think it would make their jobs easier in the long run), but new dog owners do need to take responsibility (I know this is a tall order for many people today) to learn what dog ownership entails and train their freaking animals.

Liesje

Posted : 5/31/2007 12:11:39 PM

But on this forum there is a constant bashing of JQP by the dog professionals.

I've not seen this. I've seen experienced dog trainers tell people that they are wrong. Sorry, but to me that's a simple, objective reality, not a personal insult. How will JQP realize there is a need for change and be willing to go forward if they never admit that they were wrong? If you are doing something so wrong that you are actually injuring your dog physically and quite possibly damaging his psyche, wouldn't you hope that someone who knew better would point that out to you? Just because they might be well-intentioned and are unintentionally damaging the dog does not excuse it one bit. Intentions, excuses, and rationalizations mean nothing to the dog and if the dog is where we are concerned, then let's just give clear and concise advice when it is asked of us.

Erica Saunders

Posted : 5/31/2007 12:11:49 PM

so people agree with this statement?

[

][

]
Hell no!
There are easy dogs, difficult dogs, crazy dogs, smart dogs and downright dangerous dogs, just like there are people in each of those categories.

Benedict

Posted : 5/31/2007 12:13:04 PM

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: Benedict

Whether you agree with my definition of JQP or not, people who have no wish to learn will not do so by example.

Last week at work we had an All day All staff meeting and the agenda called for 3 groups to present their happenings in the Business Unit. One presentation was on the Learning Management System, the 2nd on Analyzing Research Data using SAS, and the last one was Second Life (virtual reality worlds). I like everyone else had no interest to learn. But I made the best of the moment and initiated questions followed up by words of interest like 'cool stuff'. This questioning became contagious to others and we ended up all having a great learning experience.

The example you give is in a situation where you were a captive audience because you had to be - it was your job and thus you had motivation to participate. JQP dog owners (by my definition) would not put themselves in that kind of situation. Observing someone else interacting with their dog at the park is NOT a controlled environment, and nor do is there any kind of motivator in that situation.

Understand that here I am referring to people who are WILFULLY ignorant.

The Blame Game - It's not my fault! Excuses, excuses, excuses...