The Blame Game - It's not my fault! Excuses, excuses, excuses...

Its not like I have a miraculous solution though ...

Increasing awareness that it doesn't 'just happen' ?

More kindness/empathy to the so-called 'unenlightened'?

Perhaps more tolerance for the 'many roads to rome' approach?

Less focus on the toolbox (clicker vs crank 'n yank etc.) & more focus on the effective tools?

Less focus by professionals on services & more on education? The educated customers aren't the profitable customers, dependant & ignorant customers are MUCH better for the bottom line. ( Flame suit on for this one, it always goes over like a lead balloon)

Wow! That has got to be one of the most BRILLIANT things I've read on here in a LONG time! Dunders, you have simply and articulately voiced the issue that has been bothering me most about the current focus of dog training.

There almost seems to be a developing insularity similar to the"Ivory Tower" of academia. Any with differing opinions are "unenlightened" at best; abusive at worst. The infamous "JQ Public" is considered willfully ignorant, forgetting the fact that even the most knowlegeable of experts was born knowing no more than any other human being about our furry companions. And NONE of us will EVER know even a fraction of all there is to learn.

I have seen too many who preach kinder and gentler dog training while they practice belittling and sometimes hostile people training.

ORIGINAL: Dunders
(re-donning flamesuit)  It starts with the professionals, roviding knowledge & services for love of the dog.  I include the trainers, breeders, vets and other dog professionals...

Don't worry, I have used up their fuel so the flame should just be candle strength.  []

You have succeeded in shutting me up, well stopped me from harping on the subject by nicely articulating some of my views.  I will add to your sample list later on and that will show that I lean more towards the dog professional doing more.  NFowler is helping me define my beliefs but I see only two groups, JQP and dog professionals.  Others will come and create all these subgroups and nicely fit themselves into one.  I say when you create these subgroups then you create excuses not to participate in the greater good.

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

Its not like I have a miraculous solution though ...

Increasing awareness that it doesn't 'just happen' ?

More kindness/empathy to the so-called 'unenlightened'?

Perhaps more tolerance for the 'many roads to rome' approach?

Less focus on the toolbox (clicker vs crank 'n yank etc.) & more focus on the effective tools?

Less focus by professionals on services & more on education? The educated customers aren't the profitable customers, dependant & ignorant customers are MUCH better for the bottom line. ( Flame suit on for this one, it always goes over like a lead balloon)

Wow! That has got to be one of the most BRILLIANT things I've read on here in a LONG time! Dunders, you have simply and articulately voiced the issue that has been bothering me most about the current focus of dog training.

There almost seems to be a developing insularity similar to the"Ivory Tower" of academia. Any with differing opinions are "unenlightened" at best; abusive at worst. The infamous "JQ Public" is considered willfully ignorant, forgetting the fact that even the most knowlegeable of experts was born knowing no more than any other human being about our furry companions. And NONE of us will EVER know even a fraction of all there is to learn.

I have seen too many who preach kinder and gentler dog training while they practice belittling and sometimes hostile people training.

See, I have never gotten this feeling about dog training, and this is coming from someone who has never had any instruction with dogs until I got one.  Any issue I've had with my dogs that I have brought here has always been met with lots of good advice.  Sometimes it was very direct advice, but it was good advice.

I see this much more in the horse world.  I should show you some of the critiques posted on one of my horse boards.  Many times people are pretty much told they are idiots who are damaging their horses mouths, back, etc, that they are too fat for a particular saddle, that horse is too young to be jumping, that fencing is dangorous, you should not be tying the horse up that way-are you trying to kill it, etc.  But you know what?  These riders come back for more....

I see this in the horse people I deal with in real life.  The horse comes first, the person comes second.  If feelings get hurt on the way--tough, tough titty bumps.  There are many trainers that you will pay $70+ an hour when they spend a good deal of that hour being dealt with rather harshly.  Do you cry about it?  Nope--you come back the next week and shell out your $70 because the trainer is darn good and you are improving.  I do expect a vet to offer a full explaination of why he is giving each drug--if I ask, I expect him to tell me, but I don't think he should have to volenteer to take his valuable time with me if I can't even be bothered to ask.  We have volenteers at our barn who have learned a great deal, but they learned by doing--they learned because they wanted to, and if they made a mistake that could have killed or severely damaged a horse, they were not molly coddled.  Yet they still come back....

The infornation is out there, but you have to WANT to learn.

The infornation is out there, but you have to WANT to learn.

ABSOLUTELY!

I'm just afraid we turn people off from learning if the first thing we do is tell them how backwards and ignorant they are. I, too, have spent a lot of time at a horse barn and seen much of what you are describing. But there is a difference between constructive criticism belittling. Theresa would let you know when you you were doing something wrong, but she NEVER belittled anyone for it. You would hear "keep your leg back!" and why. Never "what do you think you're doing riding in a La-Z-Boy!?" When you have 5 riders thundering around a small arena there is no time for pleasantly asking "Could you please keep your lower leg in postion and upper body back so you don't fall off" It usually went more like "Shoulders back and heels down Jen!" Some would get offended when offerered constructive criticism in a voicce loud enough to carry over the sound of 20 hooves (usually the parent of the rider being criticised!) but most people knew the difference.

I may be generalizing the tone of dog training based on my experiences with this board. But I have also seen this on quite a few groups and blogs. A co-worker who competes in obedience, tracking and agility and teaches classes at an area dog club feels the same way. She's has no problem with the clicker trainers that she socializes with at the club, but is getting tired of being told her treat-based training would be so much better if she added a clicker instead of a voice marker. She tried it 8 years ago with her Terv. Thought it was nice, but was more comfortable with the voice marker and discontinued the clicker. She still gets a Club newbie or two each year that thinks she's a old lady who hates change (at an ancient 40) because she won't "see the light" with the clicker. She doesn't go around telling anyone their clickers are silly, and just wants the same respect for the technique that has gotten her three nationally titled dogs over the last 20 years.

ORIGINAL: sillysally

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

I spend a lot of time on various dog boards following different owners (sometimes for years - oh my!) and their never ending saga of "what's wrong with my dog?"...according to CM, it's the owner, and I agree! I've heard everything from breed, past history of "possible" abuse, bad trainers, lack of socialization, genetics, etc... The bottom line is (IMO) the buck stops with us. "WE" are the source of our dog's instability or inability to move on from the past. Dogs will move on if we will. But, "we" are the problem nine times out of ten. What do "we" want? Someone else to fix our dog using a method which we find emotionally acceptable. "We" choose management, distraction, (or worse), over resolution. An owner may refuse to change, and refuse to put the needs of the dog first...poop I say to this, POOP!

I think that this is a very comforting way to look at dog-human relationships, and that it is often true, but that sometimes it is not. I think it's best to break this down into the practical facts and the concept, or ideology, behind the facts.

The practical fact is that the owner is responsible for the dog regardless of what the dog does. So it is easiest to proceed this or a similar line of total responsibility-taking. This makes sense--there is a similar "total responsibility rant" on the Clicker Training side as well. Even if your dog is Cujo, he's your dog and it's your problem, your responsibility.

But I have a problem with the ideology behind this rant. In order for this to be true, then dogs are perfect and come to the relationship with nothing until we mess them up. This simply does not jibe with the reality I live in. Dogs are not emotionally special, perfect things that we spoil. Rather, they are complex and fairly unique actors, and like us, are completely capable of being wrong or crazy or intense or a bad match for a given human.

I don't think that this is about finding a way of working around a problem that is "emotionally acceptable" for weak owners as much as it's about understanding the larger idea--that dogs are creatures that are separate from ourselves. Yes, we created them, and yeah, they definitely need us. But they are not *us.* We don't have that kind of control, and to pretend otherwise is false. Each dog comes to the table with its own personality, breeding, socialization and other indications that it was not freshly popped out of the Dog Mold--that it is an individual sentient creature with experiences and the need to process them.

My ability to actually take total responsibility for my dogs increased tremendously after I understood that kind of distance. It helped me understand where I was working from.

Very good post--not much I can add to that.....

I totally agree that dogs don't come out of the dog mold.  I do think that breed, genetics, environment, training and management play a role in the finished product, and that humans are sometimes ill-informed, lackadaisical, cruel, and other negative things, but there are some that are interested, humane, and savvy, too.

I see this in the horse people I deal with in real life.  The horse comes first, the person comes second.  If feelings get hurt on the way--tough, tough titty bumps.  There are many trainers that you will pay $70+ an hour when they spend a good deal of that hour being dealt with rather harshly.  Do you cry about it?  Nope--you come back the next week and shell out your $70 because the trainer is darn good and you are improving.  I do expect a vet to offer a full explaination of why he is giving each drug--if I ask, I expect him to tell me, but I don't think he should have to volenteer to take his valuable time with me if I can't even be bothered to ask.  We have volenteers at our barn who have learned a great deal, but they learned by doing--they learned because they wanted to, and if they made a mistake that could have killed or severely damaged a horse, they were not molly coddled.  Yet they still come back....

The infornation is out there, but you have to WANT to learn.

Another bingo moment.  There are JQP's who hang around after class and ask questions all through my pee break, my lunch break, or my sanity break LOL, but wanna know what?  I stay and answer them!!!!  Then, there are the ones who, five minutes after I showed them how to make a temporary halter with their leashes, still let the dog drag them out the door with the leash wrapped around their fist.  And, the ones who stand there during class not practicing the exercise even when I come by to ask if they would like some help and even demo the exercise on the dog for them.  (I always wonder why they paid all that money for the class - we aren't cheap.  I demo so at least the dog gets one repetition before they take him home and assume he's stupid.)


I do think you have to make the distinction between a layman assessing blame, and a professional assessing "blame" - we don't really blame anything, we evaluate, assess the cause and try to determine a training or behavior protocol that addresses it.  But, if I am confronted with a Husky, I might,  understanding the predatory nature of those dogs, tell my client to make sure that her cat has places to hide.  And, I might tell a Corgi owner to keep her kids from running and screaming in the living room while the dog is there.  I'd be a bonehead not to realize that breed predispositions can have an effect on
behavior.

I see this much more in the horse world. I should show you some of the critiques posted on one of my horse boards. Many times people are pretty much told they are idiots who are damaging their horses mouths, back, etc, that they are too fat for a particular saddle, that horse is too young to be jumping, that fencing is dangorous, you should not be tying the horse up that way-are you trying to kill it, etc. But you know what? These riders come back for more....

 
Horse boards ... been there, seen it, been on the receiving end.   How about the day I posted a photo of me jumping my horse cross-country, asking for an evaluation of her front end.  My equitation was classic, the horse looked great but people were tripping all over themselves to point out they thought I was too fat to ride horses.  Truth be told, I find the dog boards just about the same, including this one some days. Riding instruction is more brusque by necessity.  Too many things going on & too many body parts to co-ordinate to mentally process long explanations.  Really good instructors also incorporate theory lessons but yes, horse endangering mistakes are met with less than gentle correction.  There is also a long military influence that definitely isn't for the faint of heart.  My primary coach was military trained, tears just meant you had to go twice as long, so you aren't really going to shock me with the 'toughness' of the horse world.  BTW the same criticism applies to new horse owners these days, professionals are much more happy to leave you ignorant to increase their profit margin. Dog training affords the luxury of more potential stop time & the challenge of less physical contact with animal.  For those involved at a seriously competitive level, I expect the training is similarly demanding & precise.  The average dog owner is not signed on for that, they just want a pet.  That requires different handling, for the good of the dog.  The handling you've described can prompt people take their dog & walk away from the learning process.  People may well wish to learn but it is easy to kill that wish.

I'd thought I'd post an example of what I was talking about from a small horse board I belong to....

"Unlike *****, my post was unconcered with the animal's mane, more at why anyone would put their efforts into the appearence of the horse whilst it's ****** is fully aware that her to do list around the yard is longer than the dictionary. Also, who cares what the mane looks like when the horse is that fat?

And while I think of it, I realise ******'s a bit 'unconventional' and clearly trying to ignore ever word of the pony club manual, but tying a horse up with no bailer twine is, as usual, a threat to the horse's life, as well as the owners budget, but I'm sure that's healthy enough to deal with a strangled horse.

In addition, with a belly that large, the saddle ought to be re-fitted and back checked, especially if the rider insists on riding like... that. And *******, you could probably do with buying another saddle is you're planning on keeping your backside that fat.

I realise the horse is just a pet, but riding it like that is far from productive and potentially damaging for both parties, although I'll be the first to admit I'm looking forward to the photos ****** will no doubt post of the holes in her face when her piercings have been pulled out and and the z-ray of the steel plate in her scull.

Also, the horse looks a bit toe long/heel low."


See, we're not that bad around here.  Can you imagine if someone posted a dog version of that here--hell's bells!  BTW--the site admin not only did nothing about the post but agreed with some of it[sm=whip.gif]

ORIGINAL: Dunders

Truth be told, I find the dog boards just about the same, including this one some days.

Yep, been called fat, been called lazy, been called irresponsible, and also been called nuts.  Doesn't affect me but provides good material for future post to show how members can be. 

One point I would like to make is that if I don't have any particular knowledge in a topic area, I take poster's advise at face value.  Posting opinions does influence others.  If I do have knowledge or experience I attempt to reconcile the information with the poster, which can be viewed as a challenge.  Its not challenging, its reconciling.  For example, one of the most respected members here makes the statement that walking the dog is not good exercise for the dog.  I read that I say DRATS, that how I am trying to get weight of this chubby Beagle foster.  So I change and I exercise by play and running.  I go to the CM area and the WALK is sacred.  What is JQP suppose to think?

But now back on topic.

ORIGINAL: DPU
One point I would like to make is that if I don't have any particular knowledge in a topic area, I take poster's advise at face value.

I take poster's advice at poster's value [] Stick around long enough and everybody hangs out their dirty laundry. This forum feels like a chat room. But, for better or worse, it's an archived chat room. Some people have less impulse control and forget they're on record - public record, public record on google, even.

[sm=meditate.gif]

Not really, I believe people can edit their own posts at any time.....

I'm just afraid we turn people off from learning if the first thing we do is tell them how backwards and ignorant they are.

I agree and I'm trying hard not to let my emotions get in the way when I respond to new people.  I simply offer advice, usually in the form of a bulleted list.  I won't say "OMG I can't believe you did that!  How dumb ARE you?!?!111one11"  but I will say "You should not use a prong collar on a reactive dog without instruction from a trainer.  Try one of these harnesses instead....."  I want to be honest without sounding like I mean to personally insult them.  They wouldn't come here for advice if they didn't truly care.  Likewise, if I post a dog experience and I'm doing something wrong, I hope someone will just tell me.  I try to be honest and succinct without making assumptions about the person.  I'm not going to sugar coat anything because if their situation is bad enough to post here for advice, I would hope they would appreciate an honest answer.  I try to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume their intentions are good, even if their methods are uneducated.  I will change tone and style if I can get a feel for the other poster because I want them to want more responses, not feel like people here are immediately judgmental and overbearing.

ORIGINAL: Dunders

I see this much more in the horse world. I should show you some of the critiques posted on one of my horse boards. Many times people are pretty much told they are idiots who are damaging their horses mouths, back, etc, that they are too fat for a particular saddle, that horse is too young to be jumping, that fencing is dangorous, you should not be tying the horse up that way-are you trying to kill it, etc. But you know what? These riders come back for more....

Horse boards ... been there, seen it, been on the receiving end.   How about the day I posted a photo of me jumping my horse cross-country, asking for an evaluation of her front end.  My equitation was classic, the horse looked great but people were tripping all over themselves to point out they thought I was too fat to ride horses.  Truth be told, I find the dog boards just about the same, including this one some days. Riding instruction is more brusque by necessity.  Too many things going on & too many body parts to co-ordinate to mentally process long explanations.  Really good instructors also incorporate theory lessons but yes, horse endangering mistakes are met with less than gentle correction.  There is also a long military influence that definitely isn't for the faint of heart.  My primary coach was military trained, tears just meant you had to go twice as long, so you aren't really going to shock me with the 'toughness' of the horse world.  BTW the same criticism applies to new horse owners these days, professionals are much more happy to leave you ignorant to increase their profit margin. Dog training affords the luxury of more potential stop time & the challenge of less physical contact with animal.  For those involved at a seriously competitive level, I expect the training is similarly demanding & precise.  The average dog owner is not signed on for that, they just want a pet.  That requires different handling, for the good of the dog.  The handling you've described can prompt people take their dog & walk away from the learning process.  People may well wish to learn but it is easy to kill that wish.

Sorry, but if someone's "wish to learn" is killed by one or two negative comments, then they obviously didn't have that strong of a "wish" to begin with.  I don't know if it is a society thing (most of the more "direct" horse people I've met online have been from the UK-thought that was interesting) or what but many, many people seem to have this notion that if a comment or idea doesn't make them feel warm and fuzzy inside, then it is counter productive.  Functioning adults should not have to be spoon fed information like children.  They want to learn it, or they don't.

OK this has strayed slightly but I'm going be be a big bore and respond to what I perceive to be the original issue that was posted.
 
Here's a thing:  my aunty has had dogs pretty much all her life.  They've always been pets rather than working dogs and so they have always been treated like members of the family.  Allowed on furniture, petted and played with whenever they wanted, cosseted, coddled, indulged... she has darn good dogs too.  She has a no nonsense kind of approach, the dogs seem to instinctively know that there's a line and they don't cross it.  Or something.  I don't know.  She just loves her animals, they are well cared for and well behaved.
 
So along comes a dog who DOES cross a line.  Treated just like any of the others but this one was a little demon.  Uncooperative and aggressive, he pulled, he barked, he jumped up, he was possessive, he growled, he snapped.... you name it.  Well, she'd never had to deal with this before, despite years and years of being a dog owner.  So she contacts someone in the know to help her out, a trainer.  Gets told quite harshly that she's done it all wrong.  For years.  Stop indulging the dog.  Stop letting it on your bed.  I'm sure you can guess the kind of thing.
 
Advice is followed, dog transforms and is now a wonderful pet.  So he didn't respond to the care he was given the same way all her other dogs had.  Where does the blame lie?  Faulty dog?  Or had she been "doing it wrong" for years, despite owning several happy healthy dogs with no problems? 
 
Sorry, but I just don't hold with the urban myth that is "No bad dogs, only bad owners".  This is giving far too many wonderful caring people a rough deal.  My relative was definately NOT a bad owner.  She was experienced, she was caring, she was responsible and intelligent.  Agreed there are some people who ARE just "bad owners", and some of them do have abominably behaved dogs.  But you know what, some of them that I know have dogs that are healthy well behaved and seemingly happy.  It's not the owners.  It's not the dogs.  It's not the methods.  It's just that sometimes one or more of these components is incompatible with one or more of the others.  That's just my view.

I thought more about this while making dinner and it struck me how very honest and blunt, almost to the point of seeming offensive, that our behaviorist is.  And SHE is the one who IS educated to be a professional behaviorist and trainer.  I thought about this and what it means and I've concluded that for both of us, it's really about the dog.  If someone comes here or up to me in person asking for advice about a dog situation, my goal is not to make a new best friend or help them try to rationalize their mistakes and make excuses, my main concern is for the dog.  Sometimes that means you have to be very blunt with people.  If our behaviorist sees you doing something wrong, she'll step in and say "No, don't do that it's not good for the dog.  This is the way to do it right" and will show/explain what is best for that dog.  I guess I love all my pets so much that I figure people deserve to know and will want to know when they are doing something wrong, especially if they are coming to a message board asking about it. 

Also, working in the shelter means I see maybe one in two dozen dogs that has not been beaten, neglected, encouraged to fight, or just plain abandoned for no other reason than it's owner didn't care.  Everyone has their own experiences and honestly I'm glad DPU can say his JQP is far more gentle and well-intentioned than the JQP I know, but I just don't see that.  I see dogs dying from diseases that could have been prevented with pocket change, dogs that have scars and pucture wounds from being fought, dogs that have shut down emotionally and physically because of abuse and neglect, dogs that have had very bad behaviors reinforced so much it takes us months to even make an inch of progress....unfortunately it is rare for me to see a dog that is the result of an owner that just uses common sense.  So yeah I wish I could be a bit more sensitive to strangers, but it's pretty difficult to just throw all these bad memories and images aside when that's the reality of my experience with dogs.  I want what's best for the dog, period.  If that means my suggestions will make the owner feel uneasy, then that's something I just have to accept.

All that said, I'm the type of person that does not give unsolicited advice.  I've done more "advising" here in my short time I've been here than I have in person in my entire life.  If people approach me and ask for help, I'll help them, but I won't walk up to a stranger on the street and start bugging them about how they train their dog unless I see them actually beating it.  I try to save my energy for rehabbing the dogs at the shelter and preparing prospective owners for responsible dog ownership and hopefully someday there will be less irresponsible owners on the street because we've been able to educate them while they were adopting their dog. 

i just wanted to say that this thread has given me some interesting insight, and i'm suprised how civil it's remained.
 
i wanted to pose a question based on this:
 

ORIGINAL: Edie

well, this is sort of interesting, since i consider myself to be a very forthright and aggressive personality.

I'm not saying it's set in stone,but it is a pretty common site.

I'm very laidback,but i can also be very opinionated/vocal,my dogs are exactly the same []

 
i wonder if some of us, as humans, unconsciously select certain dogs or certain breeds based on what we want ourselves to be like, and whether that may be  where some of the training problems come from.  i will use myself as an example because it seems fair.  people often ask what draws us to "our breeds"... until someone asked me, i wasn't aware that i HAD a "breed"... but it may be that i gravitated towards pit bulls because they are strong, pushy, athletic, and supremely misunderstood dogs... a lot like i feel.  what resulted was some problems managing their behaviors, and i'm wondering if that is a reflection of my issues managing my OWN behavior?
 
and what of the shy, introverted person who picks yappy vocal small dogs which attract a lot of attention, and then have trouble managing their behavior becasue they are unskilled at managing their own behavior issues?
 
just a thought i was having after the quoted exchange.  there are some very, very thoughtful people on this board, and i would be curious what anyone has to say about this.