The Blame Game - It's not my fault! Excuses, excuses, excuses...

badrap ... [sm=bow2.gif]

i wonder if some of us, as humans, unconsciously select certain dogs or certain breeds based on what we want ourselves to be like, and whether that may be where some of the training problems come from. i will use myself as an example because it seems fair. people often ask what draws us to "our breeds"... until someone asked me, i wasn't aware that i HAD a "breed"... but it may be that i gravitated towards pit bulls because they are strong, pushy, athletic, and supremely misunderstood dogs... a lot like i feel. what resulted was some problems managing their behaviors, and i'm wondering if that is a reflection of my issues managing my OWN behavior?

and what of the shy, introverted person who picks yappy vocal small dogs which attract a lot of attention, and then have trouble managing their behavior becasue they are unskilled at managing their own behavior issues?

just a thought i was having after the quoted exchange. there are some very, very thoughtful people on this board, and i would be curious what anyone has to say about this.

It's a very interesting thought and my "breed" certainly is a lot more like me than others and definitely has some qualities I hope people see in me.  I'm a GSD person because I like dogs that are intelligent, loyal (sometimes dangerously loyal), active, somewhat wary of strangers, but still pretty laid back, well-rounded, and even-keeled.  That's pretty much me to a T. 

Zeus is not friendly and neither am I. We tolerate people.  Barely.

Neither of us care for food.  We hate loose dogs with a passion.

We both like naps.

Neither of us like to bathe.   And have been known to slug a beer or two.

This would make a killer thread.

 

.. but it may be that i gravitated towards pit bulls because they are strong, pushy, athletic, and supremely misunderstood dogs... a lot like i feel.  what resulted was some problems managing their behaviors, and i'm wondering if that is a reflection of my issues managing my OWN behavior?

and what of the shy, introverted person who picks yappy vocal small dogs which attract a lot of attention, and then have trouble managing their behavior becasue they are unskilled at managing their own behavior issues?

If you think about it, this is not actually off=topic. People often choose the dog they do based on gut feelings or other emotional reasons, and often those come from being drawn to a dog that is either a lot like you, or a dog that is diametrically opposite. Then the issues that might arise from that can act as excuses or a crutch: "Well, my dog can't do/stop doing X because he is . . . ." [fill in the blank] I hear, "My dog can't sit focus because he's a Border Collie and they are hyper."

Let's see. Border Collies are geeky, energetic, OCD, manic, overthink things, bossy, creative, and did I mention bossy? Yeah, that's me.

They are also athletic, detail-oriented, focused, and have great work ethic. Hmm, not so much me.

ORIGINAL: brookcove

If you think about it, this is not actually off=topic. People often choose the dog they do based on gut feelings or other emotional reasons, and often those come from being drawn to a dog that is either a lot like you, or a dog that is diametrically opposite. Then the issues that might arise from that can act as excuses or a crutch: "Well, my dog can't do/stop doing X because he is . . . ." [fill in the blank] I hear, "My dog can't sit focus because he's a Border Collie and they are hyper."

Just like choosing human friends. Get yourself a gang of "your kind", and then decide to quit doing what everyone is into-- very hard. Easier to hang out with a different crowd.

it may be that i gravitated towards pit bulls because they are strong, pushy, athletic, and supremely misunderstood dogs... a lot like i feel. what resulted was some problems managing their behaviors, and i'm wondering if that is a reflection of my issues managing my OWN behavior?

I laughed when I read this - I picked Aussies because they are so darn smart.  I don't like stupid (although I do have patience with students' dogs, 'cuz I don't have to live with the little rockblocks).  So, I'm a Mensan, and I picked a Mensan dog???   Who knew?
Of course, the little speckled beanhead is a supremely focused dog when she's working, UNLIKE me.  I am pretty easily distracted and a crazed multi-tasker.  I manage to get it all done, but I should take a lesson from the frisbee freak and concentrate on one thing at a time LOL.  No excuses (muttering to self)...

I have always tried to select my breed based on my current lifestyle and my forseeable lifestyle.  In different times of my life I have picked the GSD, Besenji, Old English Sheepdog, Papy, Old English Bulldog, and Great Dane.  For the past few years I have been fostering dogs of different breeds.  I find that as I get to know the dog and its breed trait, the dog shows me the value of its strongest attribute and thus affecting my personality.  The Great Dane teaches me gentleness and presence.  The Pointer, steadiness and patience.  The Shepherd, loyalty and protection.  The Chi, indulging and harping.  The Mastiff, safety and size matters.  The Collie, organization.  Lab, get and play.  And finally the most influential is the hound who teaches forgiveness.    It may sound corny but our little furry friends has more of a potential to teach us than them.

wonder if some of us, as humans, unconsciously select certain dogs or certain breeds based on what we want ourselves to be like, and whether that may be where some of the training problems come from.

 
My favorite breed is Siberian Husky and Shadow is part Siberian Husky. What does that say about me?[]
 
IMHO, Sibes are strikingly beautiful, athletic, pound for pound, some of the fast dogs in the world, commit to what they're doing with 110% and there's no day that's too cold.

Sorry, but if someone's "wish to learn" is killed by one or two negative comments, then they obviously didn't have that strong of a "wish" to begin with. I don't know if it is a society thing (most of the more "direct" horse people I've met online have been from the UK-thought that was interesting) or what but many, many people seem to have this notion that if a comment or idea doesn't make them feel warm and fuzzy inside, then it is counter productive. Functioning adults should not have to be spoon fed information like children. They want to learn it, or they don't.

 
This one has been bugging me since last night.  Its taken until this morning for the lightbulb to go off as to why.
 
Some of the comments in this vein have been coming from posters that I know are involve in 'positive' dog training.  Why are we not training people like dogs?  We don't look at a dog & say "if a couple jerks on a choke chain kills his will to learn, his will to learn wasn't that strong to begin with"  We don't expect the dog to figure it out until after tens if not hundreds of repetitions, yet we expect the person to pick it up after being shown once or twice. 
It is the exact same principle.

This one has been bugging me since last night. Its taken until this morning for the lightbulb to go off as to why.

Some of the comments in this vein have been coming from posters that I know are involve in 'positive' dog training. Why are we not training people like dogs? We don't look at a dog & say "if a couple jerks on a choke chain kills his will to learn, his will to learn wasn't that strong to begin with" We don't expect the dog to figure it out until after tens if not hundreds of repetitions, yet we expect the person to pick it up after being shown once or twice.
It is the exact same principle.

Possibly because dogs are really not like people at all and many times the reason they have unwanted behaviors is because owners have been treating them like people, not like dogs?  With dogs, we strive to be very clear, concise, and blunt about what we do and don't want.  If a dog is doing something bad, we don't try to justify it before moving on, say "Oh wittle doggie dat's ok"; we just try to lure out the alternative, correct behavior.  The same could be said with the handlers.  If they've done something wrong, let's not really care about how and why let's just say "That was wrong, please try this instead..."

Also, the posters I believe you're refering to have always been adament about using proper supervision and instruction during any type of training.  If this is done, the person doesn't need to worry about becoming confused or shut down because they should be in a structured class with an experienced trainer, not trying these things on their own. 

People here have told me things I did not want to hear and things that made me feel bad for a while, but overall I'm very grateful for a lot of what I've learned because it's helped the dogs I work with.  At the end of the day, I want what's best for them even if that means someone telling me straight up that I was totally wrong.

I have to disagree with the statement that dogs & people are totally different in this respect.  I'm formally studying a course in Behavior Analysis right now.  The entire course is focused on behavior analysis with people.  The details & rewards differ but the principles are the same.

First principle: Rewards influence behavior. 
Where is the reward for average dog owner who isn't seeing the results yet, keeps being told they're wrong & doesn't have the experience to know that it will eventually come together if they persist? 

The experienced dog owner can see the tiny signs of progress & is intrinsically rewarded by the pleasure of seeing that which makes the activity of training a reward in itself.   The inexperienced can't yet perceive these things and misses out on this reward structure entirely.
 
edited for grammar

The inexperienced can't yet perceive these things and misses out on this reward structure entirely.

Right, so the inexperienced owner is always encouraged by people here to go through formal training with an experienced person so that that person can teach them what improvement actually looks like.  When I was inexperienced, I thought "improvement" was an off-leash dog finally hearing my voice and coming when called.  I was probably one of those people that would yell and yell for the dog, totally ruining the command I was using and making no connection with the dog.  When I took classes with an experienced trainer, I learned that improvement is really calling a dog one time and having it make eye contact (click > reward).  Little things like that I would have missed, as you are saying, but I'm glad my friends encouraged me to take formal classes so that I could be shown what to look for and the proper way to do things.  When the trainer or behaviorist says "Nope, that was wrong, do this..." I don't get all frustrated and want to quit, I just instantly move on.  It's not a personal attack, it's them correcting me because they can see me screwing up a dog.  I don't want them to say "Wellp, now, I perfectly understand why you did that and I think it's OK that you are making all these mistakes so do you want to maybe try it a different way?"  I've made a commitment to the animal in hand and part of that commitment is tossing aside my feelings for the time being and taking some basic instruction on what's best for that animal.

[][][][]
Liesje,  look at my earlier post re: riding experience.  My coach was military trained, if you think that I'm a proponent of coddling training you are seriously mistaken.   I am a huge champion of clear, consise training but that does not have to be negative.

We can encourage the inexperienced to go through formal training until the cows come home.  If the training is not a 'rewarding' experience, what do you think the odds are that they are going to practise what they have learned?  Let alone retain the information or seek further training?  

We need to generate the enthusiasm to try again & offer behavior in the new dog owner just as we do in the dog.

*sigh* I'm such a geek [8|]

I don't usually post here, but this thread is too fascinating not to jump in...

Several months ago, I posted a thread here entitled "musings on expectations of behaviour" in which I put forth the theory that a dog is more likely to "behave" if the owner communicates through body language that the dog is simply expected to "behave". In fact, that might be the wrong word, since a dog is ALWAYS "behaving" - it is whether they are behaving LIKE A GOOD DOG according to human standards that is the question. Semantics notwithstanding, the more experienced I become at owning a dog, the more convinced I am that my original theory is true. Those of us who believe wholeheartedly that a dog is capable of learning and "behaving" are simply more likely to have "good dogs" because the manner in which we project ourselves to the dog makes it clear to the dog what is expected.

This being another case of that famous philosophy: The medium IS the message.

To me the problem lies in the question of just how far we should take the anthropomorphising of dogs. Yes, it is illogical and unreasonable to assume that a dog can think the way we do - but given the choice, would you rather have someone who takes it too far in thinking how much their dog understands, or doesn't take it far enough and believes that their dog is incapable of learning because they aren't human? Neither option is truly desireable, which means there is some magical grey area in between in which the most effective training takes place. "JQP" dog owners do not need to be "enlightened" - they need to see the world a little less in black and white. Put that way, the whole issue of training - and trainers - becomes less intimidating, since all of a sudden it isn't required for the owner to reach the emerald city - it's just needed for them to set their feet on those yellow bricks and walk, at a pace which suits them, in the city's general direction.

Converting someone to "the right way" of treating their dog is a little like someone attempting to convert you to their religion. What would you prefer? Someone hammering on your door at 9 am on a Sunday, or sitting down with a friend over coffee and debating theology? Both have the potential to make you see the other person's point of view, but one is an AWFUL lot more likely to make you see their side than the other.

I will agree with the idea that dogs can feed off our stresses or insecurities, but not that we are always the cause of them. Some dogs have issues. Some of those are issues created by humans, some of them are quirks of the dog and in both groups you have issues which are misidentified and thus are never properly addressed. Regardless, the division between "JQP" and "educated dog owner" occurs, in my mind, right there. ANYONE who seeks out a solution to a dog issue, regardless of cause, ceases to be "JPQ". Another grey area, yes, because people are educated to a greater or lesser extent, but the very beginning of education is at its heart a desire to learn.

In the end, the only owners I view as "JQP" (as used earlier in my post and in the thread in general) are those who don't give a damn, and that creates a problem in and of itself. If those of us who are perhaps more knowledgeable about dogs don't give the "average" owner any credit, what possible incentive do they have to live up to the expectations we'd like to place on them? As with training a dog (or any trainable animal, though I have thus far not succeeded in training my fish to do much), if we don't coddle them but DO create situations in which they can be "right" they are much more likely to learn.

Kate

Liesje, look at my earlier post re: riding experience. My coach was military trained, if you think that I'm a proponent of coddling training you are seriously mistaken. I am a huge champion of clear, consise training but that does not have to be negative.

Right, but being honest isn't always negative.  We don't have to tell people they are stupid and terrible owners, but I personally don't see being told that I am wrong as all that negative, especially when it's true and it's hurting the dogs I work with.  If people come here asking serious questions about their dog's behavior and cannot handle being told that they need to try this this or this instead, why would the post for advice in the first place?  It seems that once it sinks in that they just plain aren't doing it right, they are quite willing to try other avenues.

Your horse example is a good one.  I'm not involved in horses but a friend is and you're right, they are far more blunt, assertive, and militaristic than most people here when it comes to their training and instruction.  I can't really relate to training horses, but I was a competitive gymnast and likewise when someone did something wrong, we didn't really care to figure out why they did it wrong or how to tell them it was wrong without hurting their feelings.  It doesn't matter.  What matters is it was wrong and continuing to do it that way is dangerous and retrogressive.  The point of telling them so is not to personally insult them or make them feel bad, but to get them to understand that they were in fact making a mistake and now a change is called for.

Dog training is no different than anything else in life, it's not going to happen overnight, so if people want to throw in the towel because they didn't get instant results as their "reward", then maybe there's not much help we can offer until we can convince them that they need to redefine what consitutes a result or an improvement.  So say we decide to go back and say that people and dogs really are alike.  Then I would say, we can't teach kids to go from 2+2 to calculating acrued interest in a six week course.  Part of the reason I'm more drawn to clicker training is that there's not this harsh dichotomy of a dog either performing a "sit" or misbehaving, but you start small and continuously build and shape the behaviors you want over time.  If seeing improvement is the reward on the human side, then I don't see how you can go wrong with this approach since you're going to be seeing subtle improvements almost as soon as you begin.   What I learned from going from inexperience JQP to where I am now is that obedience courses and such are almost more for learning things like timing and what subtle behaviors to notice and reward rather than actually getting the dog to execute commands.  Once that foundation is there, I would hope that the inexperience owner would transition to an experienced owner by realizing that training never stops.  Beginner classes are just the necessary foundation and they will continue working with the dog throughout its lifetime, just like people go to school for a minimum of ten years.