The Blame Game - It's not my fault! Excuses, excuses, excuses...

 I think that there is a fundamental issue being overlooked here. The average dog owner is WOEFULLY ignorant of what is involved in good animal husbandry.  It used to be that people grew up with animals and absorbed much of the knowledge by osmosis.  With the urbanization of society that is no longer the case.  Urban society increasingly restricts the natural behaviours of dogs while people in general know less & less about dogs in general. They see 'good' dogs everywhere with no idea how the dogs got that way. They simply don't know what they don't know.  We, the experienced, expect them to attend classes & research & investigate to find out the beginnings of what they need to know.  Yet it doesn't even occur to the average person.  Why should they put more effort into learning about living with a dog than they would with a baby? (regarding the lack of knowledge and babies... that's a whole different topic. Part of the problem is dog size.  They are smaller than us so 'we' tend to underestimate the difficulties/dangers involved until there is a serious problem that help is needed. Horse people tend to figure it out a little quicker, something about dealing with 900lbs of outta control horse that sends up warning flags a little quicker than 40 lbs of outta control dog. Part is the fact that having a dog, and a 'good' dog at that is considered normal.  So, if the dog isn't 'good' the first reaction of the inexperienced is that there is something wrong with the dog. The final part of the problem is the anthromorphization of dogs.  I attribute some of this to animal rights.  The fight to treat animals on the same or a similar level as humans has had the side effect that many try to treat their dogs like humans.  They attribute modes of thought & levels of reasoning that don't exists to the dogs.  They don't understand that the dogs don't understand. It doesn't make it right but does make it more understandable

^^^  love it!  Spot on.

Who the he** is this awful, stupid, mean, violent, easily led JQP whom idoggers are so mad at?
Clearly, s/he's to blame for everything! Yeah, that's it! It's the other guy's fault. Why ... we oughtta ... just go kick his/her a$$. [sm=headbang2.gif] Yeah, kick 'em and punch 'em ... or wait, maybe just ridicule and namecalling ... or wait, maybe just pointing fingers and blaming, will do.

See, if we didn't have those nasty JQP's to worry about, the rest of us could happily chatter about *our own* wonderfulness and how swimmingly *our* application of any and all techniges work on *our* wonderful dogs.[sm=angel.gif]

[sm=haha.gif] Millan certainly must be a silly pouf of an idealist to think he can train that mean and stubborn old JQP!


ETA: But seriously, great post Dunders!

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

Who the he** is this awful, stupid, mean, violent, easily led JQP whom idoggers are so mad at?
Clearly, s/he's to blame for everything! Yeah, that's it! It's the other guy's fault. Why ... we oughtta ... just go kick his/her a$$. [sm=headbang2.gif] Yeah, kick 'em and punch 'em ... or wait, maybe just ridicule and namecalling ... or wait, maybe just pointing fingers and blaming, will do.

See, if we didn't have those nasty JQP's to worry about, the rest of us could happily chatter about *our own* wonderfulness and how swimmingly *our* application of any and all techniges work on *our* wonderful dogs.[sm=angel.gif]

[sm=haha.gif] Millan certainly must be a silly pouf of an idealist to think he can train that mean and stubborn old JQP!


ETA: But seriously, great post Dunders!

This thread is going well.  Let's stay on topic, shall we?

[]  Thanks!
Its not like I have a miraculous solution though ...

Increasing awareness that it doesn't 'just happen' ?

More kindness/empathy to the so-called 'unenlightened'?

Perhaps more tolerance for the 'many roads to rome' approach?

Less focus on the toolbox (clicker vs crank 'n yank etc.) & more focus on the effective tools?

Less focus by professionals on services & more on education? The educated customers aren't the profitable customers, dependant & ignorant customers are MUCH better for the bottom line. ( [sm=evilfire.gif] Flame suit on for this one, it always goes over like a lead balloon)

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

I spend a lot of time on various dog boards following different owners (sometimes for years - oh my!) and their never ending saga of "what's wrong with my dog?"...according to CM, it's the owner, and I agree! I've heard everything from breed, past history of "possible" abuse, bad trainers, lack of socialization, genetics, etc... The bottom line is (IMO) the buck stops with us. "WE" are the source of our dog's instability or inability to move on from the past. Dogs will move on if we will. But, "we" are the problem nine times out of ten. What do "we" want? Someone else to fix our dog using a method which we find emotionally acceptable. "We" choose management, distraction, (or worse), over resolution. An owner may refuse to change, and refuse to put the needs of the dog first...poop I say to this, POOP!

I think that this is a very comforting way to look at dog-human relationships, and that it is often true, but that sometimes it is not. I think it's best to break this down into the practical facts and the concept, or ideology, behind the facts.

The practical fact is that the owner is responsible for the dog regardless of what the dog does. So it is easiest to proceed this or a similar line of total responsibility-taking. This makes sense--there is a similar "total responsibility rant" on the Clicker Training side as well. Even if your dog is Cujo, he's your dog and it's your problem, your responsibility.

But I have a problem with the ideology behind this rant. In order for this to be true, then dogs are perfect and come to the relationship with nothing until we mess them up. This simply does not jibe with the reality I live in. Dogs are not emotionally special, perfect things that we spoil. Rather, they are complex and fairly unique actors, and like us, are completely capable of being wrong or crazy or intense or a bad match for a given human.

I don't think that this is about finding a way of working around a problem that is "emotionally acceptable" for weak owners as much as it's about understanding the larger idea--that dogs are creatures that are separate from ourselves. Yes, we created them, and yeah, they definitely need us. But they are not *us.* We don't have that kind of control, and to pretend otherwise is false. Each dog comes to the table with its own personality, breeding, socialization and other indications that it was not freshly popped out of the Dog Mold--that it is an individual sentient creature with experiences and the need to process them.

My ability to actually take total responsibility for my dogs increased tremendously after I understood that kind of distance. It helped me understand where I was working from.

Very good post--not much I can add to that.....

Really?


 

ORIGINAL: DPU

JM, I am responding to your post because of your comment "a dog comes out of the box knowing how to act".  Just moments before in another thread I described my Petro as being such a dog.  He does none of behaviors in your list and I have not had to spend any time on obedience training or behavior modifications.  Some dogs need work while some dogs need no work.

Well then maybe I should add one.....

My dog doesn't come when called.... 

Now Petro, one my Great Danes that I have had for 2 years, has never been instructed in obedience except for the come command.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

...What if you were JQP and slapped a metal choke chain on him before even giving him the chance, and started jerking him around the neighborhood.

 
No it is not how to act around the dog but getting to know the dog and the expectations you define for the dog.  Both will get greater over time.  My JQP is generally intelligent, caring, and wants to know what is best for the dog.  Everyone wants the Lassie-Timmy relationship.  I have low expectations for the inexperienced dog owner JQP.  Others have higher unattainable expectations.  I say the expectations get higher over time but only  with the contributions of dog professionals and the more seasoned JQPs. 
 
Your example is interesting to me.  Let me tell you a Petro story of his last visit to the vet#%92s office in April.  As I stated Petro is not formally trained in obedience but has picked up cues from my interaction with my formally trained dogs.  When it came time for the vet technician to get Petro and take him in the back, she placed a slip collar on Petro.  The vet tech yanked it and Petro immediately dropped to the floor.  Petro is 160lbs and now the entire waiting room is watching.  She yanked again to no avail and then asked me to lift his rear end up and we would use force to get him moving.  Geez!  I wave my hand and start walking forward and Petro gets up and follows. 
 
So your “What if you were JQP and slapped a metal choke chain on him before even giving him the chance” was exactly what the dog professional did.  No wonder JQP is so confused.
 

ORIGINAL: Dunders

[] Thanks!
Its not like I have a miraculous solution though ...

Increasing awareness that it doesn't 'just happen' ?

More kindness/empathy to the so-called 'unenlightened'?

Perhaps more tolerance for the 'many roads to rome' approach?

Less focus on the toolbox (clicker vs crank 'n yank etc.) & more focus on the effective tools?

Less focus by professionals on services & more on education? The educated customers aren't the profitable customers, dependant & ignorant customers are MUCH better for the bottom line. ( [sm=evilfire.gif] Flame suit on for this one, it always goes over like a lead balloon)

[sm=haha.gif] Yep, your solutions are boring and unglamorous!

But also, when persistently presented, very, very attractive! [sm=kiss.gif]

When people with speak your kind of balanced approach, others listen! I'd love to see more offerings like yours here - to make the unglamorous, unsellable, day-in-day-out wonder of working with dogs an accessible reality for those of us who didn't grow up with dog sense and aren't finding it arriving in our fedex packages.

I never heard of Millan before joing this forum. The persistent and clear message of a handful of balanaced handlers was very persuasive in getting my eyes off all the solutions that could be purchased in the form of treats, books, devices, and competing ideologies. I have never expressed enough gratitude to these people for suiting up and showing up, their presence matters!

The ordinary, and unmiraculous part of your solution, is found in the unpaid postion of fellow citizens who show up. How many will take the thankless job?

I wonder what would happen if every person reading this, with a history of dogsense, who wishes for the balance and equanimity that Dunders articulated, would commit to starting one thread per week, and would post just enough to provide a constant hum in the background ... I wonder if that would tilt the tone enough to register a difference? (At least in this one place.)

ORIGINAL: Dunders

The average dog owner is WOEFULLY ignorant of what is involved in good animal husbandry. 

Hi Dunders,

WOEFULLY ignorant is pretty strong for JQP just because he/she is not in the know.  I consider myself a JQP and I figure in that role I can be the most effective in helping the dog out.  I think we are thinking along the same lines but I would like to hear your views as to where the responsibility lies between the dog owner and the dog professional.

No it is not how to act around the dog but getting to know the dog and the expectations you define for the dog. Both will get greater over time. My JQP is generally intelligent, caring, and wants to know what is best for the dog. Everyone wants the Lassie-Timmy relationship. I have low expectations for the inexperienced dog owner JQP. Others have higher unattainable expectations. I say the expectations get higher over time but only with the contributions of dog professionals and the more seasoned JQPs.

Your example is interesting to me. Let me tell you a Petro story of his last visit to the vet#%92s office in April. As I stated Petro is not formally trained in obedience but has picked up cues from my interaction with my formally trained dogs. When it came time for the vet technician to get Petro and take him in the back, she placed a slip collar on Petro. The vet tech yanked it and Petro immediately dropped to the floor. Petro is 160lbs and now the entire waiting room is watching. She yanked again to no avail and then asked me to lift his rear end up and we would use force to get him moving. Geez! I wave my hand and start walking forward and Petro gets up and follows.

So your “What if you were JQP and slapped a metal choke chain on him before even giving him the chance” was exactly what the dog professional did. No wonder JQP is so confused.

Can you clarify?  I guess I'm not really seeing what this post is getting at.  A dog's behavioral problems or lack thereof ARE based on the dog, NOT the humans handling it?  I think that's really what the OP is getting at....how much blame do we assign the dog vs. the human.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

ORIGINAL: Dunders

[] Thanks!
Its not like I have a miraculous solution though ...

Increasing awareness that it doesn't 'just happen' ?

More kindness/empathy to the so-called 'unenlightened'?

Perhaps more tolerance for the 'many roads to rome' approach?

Less focus on the toolbox (clicker vs crank 'n yank etc.) & more focus on the effective tools?

Less focus by professionals on services & more on education? The educated customers aren't the profitable customers, dependant & ignorant customers are MUCH better for the bottom line. ( [sm=evilfire.gif] Flame suit on for this one, it always goes over like a lead balloon)

[sm=haha.gif] Yep, your solutions are boring and unglamorous!

The persistent and clear message of a handful of balanaced handlers was very persuasive in getting my eyes off all the solutions that could be purchased in the form of treats, books, devices, and competing ideologies. I have never expressed enough gratitude to these people for suiting up and showing up, their presence matters!

If you are against books, devices, and competing ideologies, then I am a bit confused as to why you seem to be so into CM.  He has a TV show, books, at least one DVD that I've seen, his own collar, and he most certainly has a controversial ideology.  This is nothing against him--that's just capitalism at work.  However, if you were looking for and unsung, non-marketed dog trainer, then you seem to be posting in the wrong place.......

WOEFULLY ignorant is pretty strong for JQP just because he/she is not in the know. I consider myself a JQP and I figure in that role I can be the most effective in helping the dog out. I think we are thinking along the same lines but I would like to hear your views as to where the responsibility lies between the dog owner and the dog professional.

I guess I don't get how you figure you're JQP when you routinely foster and train a pack of dogs, many which have health or behavioral issues?  I think for many people here, a large part of the definition of JQP, as it relates to dog knowledge, is someone who doesn't have much experience or knowlegde of dogs.  The dog in my avatar is the one I'm adopting, but to date I have never owned a dog.  However I do not consider myself JQP because I volunteer at a shelter, I go to shows and events, I take obedience classes, I've joined an agility club, etc. No one is trying to say JQP is bad or not worthy because they don't have the knowledge and experience.  Like Ixas_girl was saying, we all had to start somewhere.  All we're saying is that JQP has some pretty false assumptions about dog training and dog ownership, often even when they do have pure intentions and the dog's best interests at heart.  For those who watch CM, we see it all the time, people saying "You know I just never really though about the importance of exercise" or "it never occured to me that treating a dog like a toddler is a bad idea."  They do love the dogs and thought they were doing right by allowing it to play in the yard instead of a walk, or carrying it around when it was aggressive like you would a baby, but anyway you spin it, those are not ideal practices of a good dog owner.  Maybe I'm way off, but I don't define JQP based on a communication style, I define it based on experience and knowledge. 

Sally, CM markets himself actively as simple and lacking in ideology.

Whether or not that's true is debatable. But you know... just as SUVs were originially marketed as vehicles for the outdoorsy and environmentally conscious...

...marketing is weird.

WOEFULLY ignorant is pretty strong for JQP just because he/she is not in the know.

 
  
That's the thing,  if you are participating effectively in this kind of discussion (and you are btw) then you aren't the average dog owner.  I stand by the assesment.
Let's be clear, I'm not a dog professional.  I'm not any kind of animal professional, but I have had the benefit of working with true horsepeople who believed in handing down animal husbandry knowledge for over 20 years.  I switched from horse to dog  last year and was able to see the gaps in my knowledge between the two.  I'm lucky, 95%+ of new dog owners don't have that background.
So where does the responsibility lie between dog owners & professionals?  (re-donning flamesuit)  It starts with the professionals, roviding knowledge & services for love of the dog.  I include the trainers, breeders, vets and other dog professionals. For example:
 
- Don't just take the dog's temp, show how to do so safely & inform of the normal range
- Don't wrap the paw, show the owner how it should be done
- Don't just hand out the antibiotics, explain what they are treating & why they are necessary
- Don't just teach clicker training, explain that it is 'just a tool' and WHY it works
- Don't just offer the grooming services, offer the seminars on basic good grooming practises
 
The examples are endless, but making new dog owners self-sufficient costs the professional money.  For the new dog owner, knowing how to identify pulse, temp. & capillary refill could not only save a dog's life but could save the owner unecessary $$$$ in vet bills. 
 
It is up to the knowledgable dog owners to GENTLY provide knowledge, to lead by example for love of the dog.  If the unknowledgable want what you have and they ask about it, help them on their own journey.  What works for your dog may not work for theirs.
 
It is up to the new dog owner to want to learn and to be open to learning, for love of the dog.
 
Instead of the adversarial atmosphere we often find, we need to build a community of mentorship to help replace the cultural mentorship of old.