The Blame Game - It's not my fault! Excuses, excuses, excuses...

I agree Angelique. When I meet a new client, one of the first questions I ask is, are you willing to change. The way you are communicating with your dog is not working. That's why you called me. Are you willing to put in the time and effort to learn a new way to communicate with your dog.
 
The dogs are easy. I can usually get them on the right track immediately. Almost all of the dogs problems and issues boil down to a few basic things. It's not so simple when it comes to the owners.
 
 

i'm curious about something, since you mentioned "breed" specifically.
 
would you qualify dog aggression in pit bulls as the "owner's fault"?

Mmmm. . .I don't know.  I mean yes, I can see it in some circumstances.  But, for the most part I've tried to do everything right and Willow is still pretty unstable in a lot of ways.  And, I don't believe that to be because of anything I'm doing or not doing. 

I think uptight owners usually own uptight dogs,Snipy folk have snipy dogs,Loudmouths who can talk your ear off  have yappy,barky,pushy dogs.
I've even heard of dog owners who make up illnesses for their perfectly healthy dogs to get attention [&o] [:@]
 At least this is what i've noticed in my travels.

ORIGINAL: Edie

I think uptight owners usually own uptight dogs,Snipy folk have snipy dogs,Loudmouths who can talk your ear off  have yappy,barky,pushy dogs.

 
well, this is sort of interesting, since i consider myself to be a very forthright and aggressive personality.

Yeah ... poop.

So how do you talk to people who are married to their misery and insist that their loved ones and pets join them? Some people are commited to victimhood; but dogs can't vocalize their objections to this unproductive state of affairs, except by exhibiting more behaviors that only serve to "prove" their brokeness.

Millan has a very direct and productive way of talking with the good natured people who are humble enough to eat a little of the crow of self-recognition (on national television, no less!). But what do you say to people who are commited to self denial and righteously nurture guilt?

well, this is sort of interesting, since i consider myself to be a very forthright and aggressive personality.

I'm not saying it's set in stone,but it is a pretty common site.

I'm very laidback,but i can also be very opinionated/vocal,my dogs are exactly the same []

The lack of personal responsibility is rampant in society today.  You see it in dogs, schools, the legal system, etc.  Folks do not consider that every action has an impact on someone or something and the ripples just keep expanding.
 
About 50% of the work I do is the result of people expecting someone else to do the ground work, provide the "security" and accomplish the task.... If it doesnt work, it is not my fault,,, heck I may even just threaten to sue you.

ORIGINAL: Angelique

...according to CM, it's the owner, and I agree! [8D]

Angelique, you know my view on your point of view.  I agree with CM and his insight to know where to start with dog's issues, the dog owner.  But the dog owners can not be left out there on their own toiling for themselves.  To borrow from HC, it takes a village.  The responsibility is shared as you say with all of "us".

I spend a lot of time on various dog boards following different owners (sometimes for years - oh my!) and their never ending saga of "what's wrong with my dog?"...according to CM, it's the owner, and I agree! I've heard everything from breed, past history of "possible" abuse, bad trainers, lack of socialization, genetics, etc... The bottom line is (IMO) the buck stops with us. "WE" are the source of our dog's instability or inability to move on from the past. Dogs will move on if we will. But, "we" are the problem nine times out of ten. What do "we" want? Someone else to fix our dog using a method which we find emotionally acceptable. "We" choose management, distraction, (or worse), over resolution. An owner may refuse to change, and refuse to put the needs of the dog first...poop I say to this, POOP!

I think that this is a very comforting way to look at dog-human relationships, and that it is often true, but that sometimes it is not. I think it's best to break this down into the practical facts and the concept, or ideology, behind the facts.

The practical fact is that the owner is responsible for the dog regardless of what the dog does. So it is easiest to proceed this or a similar line of total responsibility-taking. This makes sense--there is a similar "total responsibility rant" on the Clicker Training side as well. Even if your dog is Cujo, he's your dog and it's your problem, your responsibility.

But I have a problem with the ideology behind this rant. In order for this to be true, then dogs are perfect and come to the relationship with nothing until we mess them up. This simply does not jibe with the reality I live in. Dogs are not emotionally special, perfect things that we spoil. Rather, they are complex and fairly unique actors, and like us, are completely capable of being wrong or crazy or intense or a bad match for a given human.

I don't think that this is about finding a way of working around a problem that is "emotionally acceptable" for weak owners as much as it's about understanding the larger idea--that dogs are creatures that are separate from ourselves. Yes, we created them, and yeah, they definitely need us. But they are not *us.* We don't have that kind of control, and to pretend otherwise is false. Each dog comes to the table with its own personality, breeding, socialization and other indications that it was not freshly popped out of the Dog Mold--that it is an individual sentient creature with experiences and the need to process them.

My ability to actually take total responsibility for my dogs increased tremendously after I understood that kind of distance. It helped me understand where I was working from.

I spend a lot of time on various dog boards following different owners (sometimes for years - oh my!) and their never ending saga of "what's wrong with my dog?"...according to CM, it's the owner, and I agree!

I've heard everything from breed, past history of "possible" abuse, bad trainers, lack of socialization, genetics, etc...

The bottom line is (IMO) the buck stops with us. "WE" are the source of our dog's instability or inability to move on from the past.

Dogs will move on if we will. But, "we" are the problem nine times out of ten. What do "we" want? Someone else to fix our dog using a method which we find emotionally acceptable. "We" choose management, distraction, (or worse), over resolution. An owner may refuse to change, and refuse to put the needs of the dog first...poop I say to this, POOP!

Ahhh, I feel better now. Rant over, and the debate (it's not my fault!) can begin.

For the most part, I agree.  Soon I'm going to be dealing with a dog that has a pretty significant issue from her past.  I've thought in circles and talked to many people on how to approach it, and I've decided that it's best to just not approach it.  I don't plan on forcing her into the situation that disturbs her, but I'm not going to baby her, I'm not going to let this issue determine how we go through training and live our lives in general.  I'm glad I was told what happened, but beyond that, this is a fresh start for both of us. 

It's sort of like when you see a toddler fall.  Often, they will look to their mom before reacting.  If the mom goes "oooo, poor wittle baby waby!", the baby cries.  If the mom says "oh, it's ok." the baby will get up and forget about the fall.

Anyway, you know what really bugs me?  People assuming that their collar/harness/prong/halter is going to train the dog for them.  "Well, we used a choke collar and he still pulls!"  Um, ok....did you ever train the dog how to walk?  "When we call him to come he just runs the other way!  He's so dumb!"  Um, ok....does he know what come even means?

What gets me is that people seem to think a dog comes out of the box knowing how to act.  It is not their responsibility to train the dog, the dog is just a menace and is out to get the family.

Say for instance...my dog is peeing in the house.  Really? Dogs pee, yunno. Are you taking him outside reguarly?

My dog is jumping on visitors...Really?  Dogs do jump yunno.  Have you trained him to sit instead of jump?

My dog is chewing everything we own...Really?  Dogs chew yunno.  Are you giving him ample things to chew on?

My dog is digging up my backyard.  Really?  Dogs dig yunno. Have you considered more exercise or his own digging space?

I mean on and on and on.  I could gut people like this.

ORIGINAL: JM

I mean on and on and on.  I could gut people like this.

 
Very unique way to deal with frustration. 
 
JM, I am responding to your post because of your comment "a dog comes out of the box knowing how to act".  Just moments before in another thread I described my Petro as being such a dog.  He does none of behaviors in your list and I have not had to spend any time on obedience training or behavior modifications.  Some dogs need work while some dogs need no work.

JM, I am responding to your post because of your comment "a dog comes out of the box knowing how to act". Just moments before in another thread I described my Petro as being such a dog. He does none of behaviors in your list and I have not had to spend any time on obedience training or behavior modifications. Some dogs need work while some dogs need no work.

But don't you think part of that is because you know how to act around him and your other dogs?  What if you were JQP and slapped a metal choke chain on him before even giving him the chance, and started jerking him around the neighborhood.  Then when he pulls back, you jerk harder except your timing's way off and it jsut does downhill from there.  Not to mention you've got a nice sized pack of dogs where he can observe your behaviors towards dogs and the dogs' responses to you.  JQP usually can't even recognize such a lucky break even if they did get a dog like Petro.