Thought this link would interest you all

***Just as a sidenote, Tracking is available to all breeds and alot of non-scent hounds are master trackers, including a few chihuahua's, and lots of herding dogs- so tracking is not just for scenthounds.  It is an appropriate activity and provides ample stimulation for all dogs.***

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

The breed is what determines how the dog will react as a consequense of a problem,

Could you clarify that a bit?  Are you saying that if a lab and a hound and shih tzu encounter the same situation, that breed determines how they act?

 
[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]
 
ie. Lack of exercise:
 
Beagle = Barks night and day, excesive sniffing
Pitbull = becomes aggressive
Lab = digging holes in the backyard, chewing
Jack Russell = Running around the house
 
Every breed will use what they were breed for to get the frustration out, of course is not that every single lab will digg or every single jack russell will run, but the breed helps a lot on how to deal with the problem
 
Have your dog exercised and the beagle wont sniff excessively, the pit bull wont be aggressive, etc.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

she's leery of them because she's a GSD and that's exactly how I want her to behave around strangers. 

 
What if that stranger is 8 years old? you have to be very careful with that, for what could happen to the kid, the dog or you

Have your dog exercised and the beagle wont sniff excessively, the pit bull wont be aggressive, etc.

 
Careful espence, this is irresponsible information.  Beagles can trail for 12-24 hours, sniffing and trailing is what they do.  You cannot exercise hundreds of years of breeding and instinct out of a dog.
 
Also, just because you've exercised your pit bull type, doesn't mean that it won't be dog aggressive.  Ask anyone on idog with a DA or reactive bully. 
 
You're wrong here.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes
Careful espence, this is irresponsible information.

....

You're wrong here.

Not wrong, not irresponsibe. He's using Millan theory to work it out in the Millan section! So, let's get on the same page.

Espencer, to clarify, are you suggesting that the dog is less likely to default to undesired behaviors when exercised? I didn't assume you meant that exercise *fixes* cumpulsive behavior. I understnad Millan as saying it's exercise + discipline and affection, not exercise alone.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

ORIGINAL: Xerxes
Careful espence, this is irresponsible information.

....

You're wrong here.

Not wrong, not irresponsibe. He's using Millan theory to work it out in the Millan section! So, let's get on the same page.

Espencer, to clarify, are you suggesting that the dog is less likely to default to undesired behaviors when exercised? I didn't assume you meant that exercise *fixes* cumpulsive behavior. I understnad Millan as saying it's exercise + discipline and affection, not exercise alone.

I think you may both be treading on dangerous ground here.  Cesar Millan tells people to consult professionals with regard to their own situations, and I strongly urge people to do so, lest they be misled as to how easy (or how difficult) it might be to work with dogs whose breed predispositions are significant for one behavior or another.  I think that Xerxes is correct, in this instance, especially as regards the advice about predatory or dog aggressive behavior, that it's dangerous to make generalizations about the ease of "rehabilitating" any dog, no matter whose methods you choose, when the behaviors you seek to modify are those that are usually considered "hard-wired", or instinctive.  Being on the same page shouldn't mean that people shouldn't exercise caution or seek professional help for their own dogs.

It really is more helpful when posters read the thread before making hasty and simplisticly contrary comments founded on biased and inaccurate assumptions!

This way, everyone can cooperatively build the thread with others, and debate actual differences rather than invented ones! []


Hint: This thread is about Millan theory (that's the thinking part ... in contrast to *practice*, that's the doing part), there are references to 2 other threads, but there is not a "this instance" here.

And: perhaps someopne can quote where Millan suggests hiring a professional to discuss his theories!

[]

I'm sorry i forgot to add also to (just like we spoke before) find a breed related activity to redirect those needs to a good path (maybe could be included in the "exercise" part of "exercise, discipline and affection")
 
Now we are talking about exercise because i give that as example, the problem could come from lack of discipline, not enough leadership, etc. but now we are just talking about "breed predispositions problems" for lack of exercise
 
And i never said to walk your dog for 20 min. after you havent taking him out for over a month to have your problem fixed []

ORIGINAL: Xerxes
Careful espence, this is irresponsible information.

....

You're wrong here.

Not wrong, not irresponsibe. He's using Millan theory to work it out in the Millan section! So, let's get on the same page.

Espencer, to clarify, are you suggesting that the dog is less likely to default to undesired behaviors when exercised? I didn't assume you meant that exercise *fixes* cumpulsive behavior. I understnad Millan as saying it's exercise + discipline and affection, not exercise alone.



 
No he's not using Milan theory, he's using rash generalizations that can get lurkers hurt.  From what I've seen, Milan approaches each individual dog as an individual first, and also counsels individuals to consult with professionals.
 
If I thought what espence was doing was within the confines of the CM only paradigm I wouldn't have said anything. 

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

The breed is what determines how the dog will react as a consequense of a problem,

Could you clarify that a bit?  Are you saying that if a lab and a hound and shih tzu encounter the same situation, that breed determines how they act?

[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]

ie. Lack of exercise:

Beagle = Barks night and day, excesive sniffing
Pitbull = becomes aggressive
Lab = digging holes in the backyard, chewing
Jack Russell = Running around the house

Every breed will use what they were breed for to get the frustration out, of course is not that every single lab will digg or every single jack russell will run, but the breed helps a lot on how to deal with the problem

Have your dog exercised and the beagle wont sniff excessively, the pit bull wont be aggressive, etc.

Labs were not bred for digging......

ORIGINAL: Xerxes
No he's not using Milan theory, he's using rash generalizations that can get lurkers hurt. From what I've seen, Milan approaches each individual dog as an individual first, and also counsels individuals to consult with professionals.

If I thought what espence was doing was within the confines of the CM only paradigm I wouldn't have said anything.

Yes, I appreciate that you are a good citizen who wants to see good information be presented to dog owners.[]

But, Millan doesn't approach each dog as an individual first (see jen's post above, and the first 4 minutes of any segment, and his website, and his blogs). What he does do: approaches each dog owner as an individual, generally as a neurotic individual, who is projecting human fantasy on a *dog*. He does little "intake" of the dog, but much "getting to know" of the human. He starts most episodes with "How can I help you?", where the you is the owner. He needs people to see dogs as dogs first, because it's part of his remedy for fixing how people live with their dogs.

Millan practices many well established behavior protocols with dogs. The very special and unique thing about him is his emphasis on humans projecting emotional and psychological baggage. Species > breed > individual is meant as a conceptual guide and is not to be used as baggage.

It's fine to say "huskies have a darned strong drive to pull, so let's work with that."
It's baggage laden to say "all huskies can do nothing but pull, so I throw up my hands."

Hopefully Espencer has clarified that he didn't mean to imply that exercise cures dog aggression, and we can let go of arguing a point that doesn't exist?

I'd also like to add that if Millan were reading this, and was concerned about what Espencer had said, he would first have clarified what was meant before determining what, if any correction was necessary. []

What if that stranger is 8 years old? you have to be very careful with that, for what could happen to the kid, the dog or you

So what?  I still don't get where you're going.  If she sees a 45 year old: ignore, or approach, sniff, walk away.  If she sees an 8 year old: ignore, or approach, sniff, walk away.  Nothing is going to happen to the kid, the dog, or me, because the dog is well trained to simply not care about strangers and listen to what I say.

It seems that you are very quick to interpret "leery" and "aloof" as intending to be aggressive or predatory.   There's plenty of gray area between approaching without hesitation and sizing someone up for an attack or assertion of dominance.

Hopefully Espencer has clarified that he didn't mean to imply that exercise cures dog aggression, and we can let go of arguing a point that doesn't exist?

I think we're all in agreement with what you're saying.  My beef with what espencer said is that he said certain behaviors are "negative traits" that only manifest when an owner has not done exercise and discipline.  I totally and completely disagree with that, because what may seem "negative" about my dog to him and others is actually exactly what she has been trained to do and what her standard requires.  As I said in my very first response to this topic, words like "negative" and "behavioral problem" are so often used incorrectly because what an inexperienced owner or someone who doesn't care for a particular breed will assume is a "bad" behavior might not be bad at all.

Nobody is trying to eliminate anything, if you dont want your dog to chase a cat you need an activity that will redirect that behavior for good, you need to find something that will fufill that need without being a negative factor, they can be changed BUT you need to find a subsitute for it

I am not in disagreement with you there.  Example: Sequoyah has no cattle.  But, she does enjoy chasing her f-r-i-s-b-e-e. []  But, she especially likes that activity because it fulfills an Aussie's natural herdiness.

I don't think CM thinks breed is unimportant - he just thinks that the fact that the animal is a DOG is MORE important than the BREED.

And, you could be right about that.  But, some of us think it's very important to consider a dog's breed (and CM might, too, just not make a big deal of saying so) as we consider all the other factors about being a dog.  You really can't separate the two without being irresponsible.  Here's why - if you want to recommend to a client that they increase the amount of exercise their dog is doing to address a behavioral problem,for example, you might want to be extra careful to recommend a vet check first on breeds such as Cavalier King Charles Spaniels or Boxers due to the high percentage of individuals within those breeds that have heart problems.

[blockquote]

quote:

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

SECOND make sure Fido's needs as a (INSERT BREED HERE) are met. If Fido is a herder, find a herding-type activity, if he's a retriever play fetch... if he's scenthound play tracking games... you get the idea.

[/blockquote]

Exactly, if you dont do anything then the dog will find his own way to do it and most of the times that way is not the best for the dog or the owner  

You just made a perfectly logical argument for understanding breed predispositions.    []

You're saying Ed is denying his dogs the right activities because he says they cannot be trusted off-leash, but we all know he does plenty of the appropriate activities with his dog

Owners meet dogs' needs in different ways, and if the dogs are behaving as the owner desires, who's to question how that's done?  Does it really matter that Sequoyah has no cattle?  I'm sure she'd like some, but the nearest herding trainer to me that has suitable stock would eat my gas allowance for a year.  Do I think she is fine with the outlets I am able to provide?  Sure - she does agility, frisbee, tracking, and other sports and activities.  She's a busy girl and a social butterfly, and, while she is intense and "busy", she is most assuredly not neurotic, and follows the requests I make of her.  I think that Ed is probably meeting his dogs' needs in a way that lets them have a safe outlet for their energy, too. 

You just made a perfectly logical argument for understanding breed predispositions.   

Good! That was my point! Everyone jumps to the conclusion that CM doesn't care about the breed of the dog when that's not precisely true. He cares about that fact that it's a DOG first then BREED second. Kind of like when you go to the doctor that fact that you're human is most important, then male or female is of secondary importance. Not unimportant at all - just not AS important.