Thought this link would interest you all

My favorite comment:

5. longevity032003 - 8:45PM on 05/19/07 DOG LOVER,GOD MADE DOGS AND CATS, BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE SO STUPID AND HEARTLESS. MY CHOW'WOW'WA THINKS HE IS A GERMAN SHEPARD.

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ORIGINAL: espencer

"4. BREED IS NOT DESTINY"

I know a lot of people in this forum that blame their breed from thier dog's problems []

Funny, I don't.  I know a lot of people on the forum who understand breed predispositions, but I haven't really seen a lot of this. 
I tend to agree with Liesje that some people, who perhaps don't understand those predispositions, assume that a dog's behavior is abnormal, when in fact it isn't.  That doesn't imply that a dog cannot be trained not to exhibit those behaviors, but they certainly don't fall in the realm of abnormal in terms of canine behavior - they just aren't convenient for humans. []  Also, on the other thread, the comment about GSD's was intended to reiterate that the breed standard expects them not to feel like everyone is their friend.  Unsocialized GSD's may be downright unfriendly, while extensively socialized GSD's may act like goofy Labs who think everyone is their best bud.  But, lacking socialization and training, they will usually be more reserved with strangers than less.  If you completely disregard breed predisposition, you would not know enough to really socialize the tar out of your GSD, and then would need to use rehab of some sort, either Cesars's, as you folks would want, or some other method.  What I don't understand is why people don't just pay attention to the temperament standard for the breed they buy and just socialize the dog accordingly as to where on that behavioral spectrum they expect the dog to land.  That said, I think you will find that the dog's genetics will play some role.  A high drive working Aussie is different than a more relaxed show type - breeders are working toward different goals sometimes.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs


Funny, I don't.  I know a lot of people on the forum who understand breed predispositions, but I haven't really seen a lot of this. 
I tend to agree with Liesje that some people, who perhaps don't understand those predispositions, assume that a dog's behavior is abnormal, when in fact it isn't.  That doesn't imply that a dog cannot be trained not to exhibit those behaviors, but they certainly don't fall in the realm of abnormal in terms of canine behavior - they just aren't convenient for humans. []  Also, on the other thread, the comment about GSD's was intended to reiterate that the breed standard expects them not to feel like everyone is their friend.  Unsocialized GSD's may be downright unfriendly, while extensively socialized GSD's may act like goofy Labs who think everyone is their best bud.  But, lacking socialization and training, they will usually be more reserved with strangers than less.  If you completely disregard breed predisposition, you would not know enough to really socialize the tar out of your GSD, and then would need to use rehab of some sort, either Cesars's, as you folks would want, or some other method.  What I don't understand is why people don't just pay attention to the temperament standard for the breed they buy and just socialize the dog accordingly as to where on that behavioral spectrum they expect the dog to land.  That said, I think you will find that the dog's genetics will play some role.  A high drive working Aussie is different than a more relaxed show type - breeders are working toward different goals sometimes.

The breed is what determines how the dog will react as a consequense of a problem, "breed predispositions problems" (if you want to call it that way)", but a breed is not a problem, i.e. "well my dog is a lab so he likes to chase animals, is in his breed so there nothing i can do", "well my pitbull does not like dogs, i cant fix that(or it will be too difficult)"

My point is, people blame the breed for the dog's problems, and its not the dog's breed fault, its the owner's fault, have all your dog's needs fufill and the "breed predispositions problems" will never show up.

Espencer, yeah ... people blame thier dogs in lots of ways "dog's misbehaving", "dog hates my mom/BF/sister", "dog is hyper", "dog is aggressive", "dog is disobedient" "dog is bread to be difficult" ...

It's telling that breed would predispose for particular stress responses. Just like there are so many "tells" in how people respond to stressors.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs


Funny, I don't.  I know a lot of people on the forum who understand breed predispositions, but I haven't really seen a lot of this. 
I tend to agree with Liesje that some people, who perhaps don't understand those predispositions, assume that a dog's behavior is abnormal, when in fact it isn't.  That doesn't imply that a dog cannot be trained not to exhibit those behaviors, but they certainly don't fall in the realm of abnormal in terms of canine behavior - they just aren't convenient for humans. []  Also, on the other thread, the comment about GSD's was intended to reiterate that the breed standard expects them not to feel like everyone is their friend.  Unsocialized GSD's may be downright unfriendly, while extensively socialized GSD's may act like goofy Labs who think everyone is their best bud.  But, lacking socialization and training, they will usually be more reserved with strangers than less.  If you completely disregard breed predisposition, you would not know enough to really socialize the tar out of your GSD, and then would need to use rehab of some sort, either Cesars's, as you folks would want, or some other method.  What I don't understand is why people don't just pay attention to the temperament standard for the breed they buy and just socialize the dog accordingly as to where on that behavioral spectrum they expect the dog to land.  That said, I think you will find that the dog's genetics will play some role.  A high drive working Aussie is different than a more relaxed show type - breeders are working toward different goals sometimes.

The breed is what determines how the dog will react as a consequense of a problem, "breed predispositions problems" (if you want to call it that way)", but a breed is not a problem, i.e. "well my dog is a lab so he likes to chase animals, is in his breed so there nothing i can do", "well my pitbull does not like dogs, i cant fix that(or it will be too difficult)"

My point is, people blame the breed for the dog's problems, and its not the dog's breed fault, its the owner's fault, have all your dog's needs fufill and the "breed predispositions problems" will never show up.

While I think it is simplistic to blame a dog's breed for common problems, I do think that it will usually be more difficult to teach an Aussie to "leave it" when the object is moving, more difficult to teach a Husky not to pull on lead, and maybe impossible to teach a Pittie not to be dog aggressive.  Some traits really are genetically hard wired.  Sure, many of them can be modified, but you can't expect to completely eliminate certain tendencies.  Even if a dog has a great "leave it", I wouldn't necessarily expect her not to chase a cat if the owner wasn't there to stop her, especially if she is pre-programmed to want to stop motion or chase.
I like to think that we love our dogs because they are dogs, and that dog lovers should at least be tolerant of normal canine behavior, even if they choose to modify it somewhat -  but, if we want little human automatons, we should procreate, not adopt other species. []
I mean, it's like the person who buys a Newfoundland, then wonders why there's slobber all over the house.  Or, they buy a GSD and wonder why he doesn't love everyone?  Hmm.  Not enough homework done IMO.

Anne, I agree with you.  Breeds have tendencies.  There are individuals within that breed set that have less of the specific tendencies.  Yes, there are hounds that won't hunt, retrievers that won't retrieve, sleeve dogs that won't bark and mushers that won't mush.  Those are definitely the exception rather than the rule.
 
Breed isn't everything, but it is an indicator of tendencies.  Don't get a lab if don't like to throw things and have them brought back, don't get a hound if you don't like going on walks, don't get a husky if you're not an active person, and don't get a sighthound if you want an always reliable off lead companion.
 
Breed gives us tendencies, and specialization.  I don't think you can discount that.  While breed isn't necessarily destiny, it is a strong indicator of what a mature dog will usually become.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes
Breed gives us tendencies, and specialization. I don't think you can discount that. While breed isn't necessarily destiny, it is a strong indicator of what a mature dog will usually become.

Right! [] And, underlaying that, is species!

A pitbull's instincts, physiology, and behaviors are closer to a great dane's than a duck's!
An aussie's instincts, physiology and behaviors are closer to lab's than a gnu's!
A GSD's instincts, physiology and behaviors are closer to a chihuahua's than a human's!

Millan underscores the problem with humans not recognizing species, rather, treating dogs like kids or over personalizing them, based on projected personality traits ("my dog insists on wearing pink).

Thus, species > breed > individual

Before we can ask "what kind of dog?", we have to consider "what is dog?", and finally, "who is this specific dog?"

Dog > Cattledog/chow > Ixa .... if I don't start with species, I'm shooting arrows in the dark!

dogs live in packs
gnu's live in herds
ducks live in flocks
humans live in sociopolitical systems

Thus Millan's insistence on considering pack behavior vs other social structures! []

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Sure, many of them can be modified, but you can't expect to completely eliminate certain tendencies. 
 

 
Nobody is trying to eliminate anything, if you dont want your dog to chase a cat you need an activity that will redirect that behavior for good, you need to find something that will fufill that need without being a negative factor, they can be changed BUT you need to find a subsitute for it
 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Breed isn't everything, but it is an indicator of tendencies.  Don't get a lab if don't like to throw things and have them brought back, don't get a hound if you don't like going on walks, don't get a husky if you're not an active person, and don't get a sighthound if you want an always reliable off lead companion.

 
Well those are not problems actually, we are talking about the negative part that a breed could bring if the owner does not fufill his dog's needs

I don't think CM thinks breed is unimportant - he just thinks that the fact that the animal is a DOG is MORE important than the BREED. He explains in his book really well how he tries to break down an indivual dog's behavior.

FIRST makes sure Fido's needs as a DOG are met. Plenty of exercise, discipline, affection, etc.
SECOND make sure Fido's needs as a (INSERT BREED HERE) are met. If Fido is a herder, find a herding-type activity, if he's a retriever play fetch... if he's scenthound play tracking games... you get the idea.
THRID make sure Fido's needs as FIDO are met. What is it that this individual dog in needs to be happy and complete. CM often tells owners that they put these needs first when they should be last. Like Fido needs exercise *more* than he needs his daily Greenie. Or he needs boundaries *more* he needs to be on the couch.

It's not a step-by-step first, second, third - like you must do them in that exact order. It's just a level of importance. First is most important, second is next important, third is least important.

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

SECOND make sure Fido's needs as a (INSERT BREED HERE) are met. If Fido is a herder, find a herding-type activity, if he's a retriever play fetch... if he's scenthound play tracking games... you get the idea.

 
Exactly, if you dont do anything then the dog will find his own way to do it and most of the times that way is not the best for the dog or the owner

ORIGINAL: espencer
Exactly, if you dont do anything then the dog will find his own way to do it and most of the times that way is not the best for the dog or the owner

Careful, Espencer! [] That sounds dangerously close to "you have to give an incompatible behavior, not just a "no"! []

ETA: Great post, jen ... thanks for the reference to the text! []

We are talking about the negative part that a breed could bring if the owner does not fufill his dog's needs

But how are those things negative?  Just because one behavior seems negative to another person doesn't mean that the owner did something wrong or is denying the dog the right activities.  Maybe that's how the owner prefers the dog to behave.  You're saying Ed is denying his dogs the right activities because he says they cannot be trusted off-leash, but we all know he does plenty of the appropriate activities with his dog and understands that he cannot expect them to be trusted off-leash.  Like I said, many people will percieve my GSD as "bad" because she is leery of strangers (and by leery I mean she will look at you, maybe sniff you, and then walk away.  She doesn't care for you to be playing with her and petting her within 10 seconds of meeting).  She is not leery of them because I've denied her activities (what do you call obedience, tracking, agility, and daily exercise?), she's leery of them because she's a GSD and that's exactly how I want her to behave around strangers.  If she approached every stranger with her tail wagging, ready to jump in their laps, I'd correct that.  How can something that is required of the breed standard be negative?

The breed is what determines how the dog will react as a consequense of a problem,

 
Could you clarify that a bit?  Are you saying that if a lab and a hound and shih tzu encounter the same situation, that breed determines how they act?

ORIGINAL: Liesje

But how are those things negative?  Just because one behavior seems negative to another person doesn't mean that the owner did something wrong or is denying the dog the right activities.  Maybe that's how the owner prefers the dog to behave.  Like I said, many people will percieve my GSD as "bad" because she is leery of strangers (and by leery I mean she will look at you, maybe sniff you, and then walk away.  She doesn't care for you to be playing with her and petting her within 10 seconds of meeting).  She is not leery of them because I've denied her activities (what do you call obedience, tracking, agility, and daily exercise?), she's leery of them because she's a GSD and that's exactly how I want her to behave around strangers.  If she approached every stranger with her tail wagging, ready to jump in their laps, I'd correct that.  How can something that is required of the breed standard be negative?

 
Example? a 8 years old stranger, need to say more?

Example? a 8 years old stranger, need to say more?

I have no clue what you're talking about.