Sniffing

Liesje,

I think you asked a question in the CM forum to get input regarding whether not strictly adhearing to his methods and philosophies during one walk with a cooped-up shelter dog, was going to "ruin" the dog. The answer is no.

I think it's also important that if you want to learn to rehab messed up shelter dogs, you study with someone who uses your chosen method in person. I can't stress this enough!

If you mess up accidentally, ease up on insisting upon the duration which the dog must be in the "zone", adjust the exercise slightly to fit the dog you are working with, or decide you don't want to use the structured walk at all...that is up to you to decide as you see fit, with any given dog.

When living with a dog day in and day out, the structured walk following CM's basic protocols is a vital component with which to accomplish a great deal in the overall relationship with the dog and head off social and behaviorioral problems when out in public (and at home) before they even start. I hope you took the time to read the threads I posted. []

If you are asking a question from the folks who understand, support, and use Cesar's overall concepts and philosophies in the CM forum, you should get a chance to discuss them without debate from those who disagree, have an anti-CM agenda, and/or don't understand his philosophies and terminologies.

I think it may be helpful for you to post topics where you want all philosophies discussed, in a general area of the board so those who wish to debate any part of your question, may do so freely.

You might also want to open a thread in the clicker section if you are interested in how training a dog to heel using that method might be helpful. I doubt anyone here is going to go over there and ush CM's use of the of structured walk or debate clicker and/or treat training. [8D]

CM's way is not the only way, but this is where we are free to discuss it in depth without training method debates and harassment. Also, Cesar is not a "dog trainer". What he's doing is a completely different philosophy, a social philosophy. []

Whether you choose to use a part of CM's philosophies, combine them with training methods, or not use them at all...I wouldn't be surprised if CM himself would encourage you to follow the path which makes sense to you.

That path may very well be clicker training. [] 

Good luck in your continuing studies and keep safe with those shelter dogs!

What happened? he didnt like the idea of not being the one in control and thats why he did it (it sounds like this was a different dog from the beagle but the dog's feelings about you could be the same)

Dogs dont "walk all over" their owners BUT they set the discipline if they see you as a follower

Isn't that a contradiction?  The dog that bit me was very much under my control, he was at heel just behind me whether he liked that or not and I was not letting him sniff or walk off to the side at all.  So how could he be mad that I was in control AND think I was being the follower?  It's either one or the other.  I felt completely in control at the time, and even as he bit a few dozen times I did NOT let go of the lead or give him any slack.

Perfect example of why the dog bit you, he knows you are stressed and anxious, therfore you dont have confidence of your self, therefore you are not a leader and he can not trust to make decisions

That's not really what I meant.  I'm stressed an anxious now after the bite because at the time, I felt totally confident and in control and the bite still occured.  That dog carried on for a long time when we started out, trying to zigzag and pull me around like he was the one walking me, but that did NOT happen and he was really catching on and starting to behave when BAM he was on me. 

You felt more relaxed because you didnt have to control anything, you just let your dog whatever she wanted to do, you were actually not in control at all, it has to be the opposite way.............Again, she was because she was the one controlling the walk and you were behaving like a good follower, that if we dont take under consideration the excesive sniffing for being caged most of the day

(She's not my dog, I work at a shelter so I walk half a dozen dogs every time a go and they're rarely the same dogs as the time before.  My dog has been properly trained since puppyhood, thank the Lord!!).  She was hardly controlling anything and was definitely NOT doing what she really wanted (she REALLY wanted to go swimming and I let her step in the water and then we moved on).  If she pulled, I corrected and she responded.  If she veered of to the side or tried to stop to sniff an area for longer, I corrected and she responded.  Also, I don't think her sniffing is what I would call excessive or obsessive.  If I thought she was sniffing obsessively out of frustration, I would have stopped her and gone on a jog to work off that energy rather than walk her through a field of wild flowers with all that distraction. 

Liesje,

I think you ask really great questions. Thanks. I also think questions like the ones you're asking here, are especially vital for you, since you are fresh off the heels of a traumatic experience. I hope you notice the thoroughness of Angelique and espencer#%92s answering of the clear questions you've articulated regarding CM philosophy.

Sometimes the right thing to do feels counterintuitive for us. As you know, Millan#%92s theories ask people to focus on what#%92s right for the dog vs what feels good for themselves. You've been learning a lot of stuff and crash-coursing on doggy everything in preparation for your new dog. Perfectionist? Ya! I think so! []

Perhaps the most useful aspect of Cesar's Way for you, right now, isn't so much the specifics, but rather, the focus on "calm assertive" and allowing yourself to discover how to get there, again and again. One walk with a beagle isn't enough field work to know if you#%92ve hit the right formula. Give it time, be observant. I think Millan#%92s philosophy supports such first hand, direct learning, just so you#%92re running your analysis through the filter of “what#%92s good for the dog” rather than “what feels good for me.”

I'm guessing, however, that your underlying questions about your role and safety are still burning for you. Time will tell how you will develop relationships with both the dogs you walk, and the dog that is joining your family.

I liked that you asked your question in the CM section. I'd love to have more open debate, among Cesareenies, about the methods. Unfortunately those who actually do enjoy CM philosophies and discussion, feel the need to be on guard here because of the constant barrage of misinformation and politicizing. I hope you can appreciate the responses to you in spite of that.

Sometimes the right thing to do feels counterintuitive for us. As you know, Millan#%92s theories ask people to focus on what#%92s right for the dog vs what feels good for themselves.

True.  So, back to the example of this Beagle, since she proved that she was not a puller, a jumper, a biter, or a zig-zagger and she responded quickly and accurately to my corrections, I still don't see what I lost by letting her sniff?  If it makes any difference, this particular dog was not motivated by treats (I had her in a run before we walked and she prefered to "sit" for affection than for treats).  So, is it bad for the dog to reward their good behavior and their improved behavior after corrections with an extra two feet of freedom?  My treats meant nothing, and my affection doesn't mean a whole lot to a dog that's being stared down and poked at by humans all day long.

I suppose this is probably a really bad example for this discussion because of the environment this particular dog has to live in.  She gets walked three times a day by a new person every time.  It could be the professional behaviorist, or it could be a 9 year old kid with NO experience in dog psychology or training.  When I take out a dog, I have to assume that it is going to be terribly behaved, completely unsocialized, and have absolutely no training.  I have 20 minutes with each dog and in that time, my goal is for them to see (if only for a few seconds) that human = leader and bearer of rewards.  So perhaps I can't entire reconcile Cesar's ways with these dogs because he always says "exercise THEN affection...", but I don't have that opportunity to provide affection post-exercise, so if I do want to reward them at all it has to be during their walk.  Afterward, it's right back into their small cell with the constant barking and humans hovering over them (honestly, I'm surprised that there aren't MORE of them with obsessive behaviors!  Many of them have an unimaginable level of resillience and potential, considering the atmosphere they live in).

Cesar needs to do an episode for shelter and rescue volunteers! []

ORIGINAL: Liesje
My treats meant nothing, and my affection doesn't mean a whole lot to a dog that's being stared down and poked at by humans all day long.

I can imagine it being different with shelter dogs... These dogs have a different walkers every day. I'm sure they get somewhat attached to you, but I can't see there being strong enough of a relationship to fall back upon. I think that praise or corrections only work if they matter to a dog, and if there is no relationship between you, what's there to fall back upon?

Agree, to many different walkers applying different techniques is only making the poor dogs confused [&:], i dont think a shelter dog could be balanced by having those a different experience with each person

I can imagine it being different with shelter dogs... These dogs have a different walkers every day. I'm sure they get somewhat attached to you, but I can't see there being strong enough of a relationship to fall back upon. I think that praise or corrections only work if they matter to a dog, and if there is no relationship between you, what's there to fall back upon?

Exactly!  Maybe I need a seperate thread about this issue, but since I started the thread I don't mind it derailing in this direction.  Our dogs get different walkers THREE times a day.  Most of the dogs I walk are new to me EVERY time, which is good because it means they are getting adopted fast, but bad because I have no experience with the dog, no knowledge of any specific issues or challenges it faces, nor any kind of raport with the dog.  A lot of times, dog's on Cesar's show improve almost instantly, and a lot of times I have had success, I shouldn't call it "improvement" but being able to bring out the best of the dog.  But other times on Cesar's show, he has to come back once or twice every few weeks, or bring the dog to 14 day boot camp, and a lot of times I struggle with the shelter dogs and that's a lost opportunity because I can't do a follow-up ever week, or spend 14 days intensely training and socializing the dogs.  I have 20 minutes beginning to end, and I need to figure out what is best for the dog AND try to end it on a good note with some closure.  There are some that stick around and you get a rare chance to bond (for example Apollo a German Shepherd...I cried to myself when he got adopted, I loved him so much), but those are few and far between.

Thanks for all the input, guys!  I'm off to keep plugging away at catching up on Cesar episodes...

I have 20 minutes beginning to end, and I need to figure out what is best for the dog AND try to end it on a good note with some closure.

When you have that short a time, if you are able to get the dog some respite and kindness, plus end on a good note, that is a very good thing. Whenever you interact with a dog, you are reinforcing his ideas about humans. []  

Dogs dont "walk all over" their owners BUT they set the discipline if they see you as a follower

The bites that she received were not of a disciplinary nature.  It doesn't take a behaviorist to know that.  And shame on you for suggesting that the actions of an unpredictable animal were caused by her.

[sm=backtotopic.gif]

While I don't necessarily agree with the methods espoused by CM, I do understand that protocol for the walk should be followed completely until leadership is firmly entrenched in the dog's mind.  At that point it is up to you to decide how and whether your dog should sniff and how closely you desire to follow that protocol.

ORIGINAL: Liesje
I have 20 minutes beginning to end, and I need to figure out what is best for the dog AND try to end it on a good note with some closure.

Sounds like that's the meat of the challenge. The 20 minute program. Goals and expectations ... what consitutes failure/success? I wonder if you could start experimenting with different rituals at the start of each encounter, to set a tone

And, Yeah, what *would* Cesar do? Maybe that's a good pitch for one of his segments! They take inquiries on his website!

I will say this, two things I learned from Cesar (that honestly I probably should have known on my own or very well would have learned from most trainers) that have worked in EVERY case:

1) Let the dog know YOU are in charge from the SECOND it leaves its kennel.  They know that the leash means "out" and they know exactly where the door to "out" is and they pull/fight/scramble for it like a bat out of hell, but I've started correcting them as soon as their kennel door is shut and walking at MY pace to the door.

2) Making the dog let YOU go in or out first.  There's a lot of chances for this in one walk, and it's worked pretty well.  First, you have to get OUT of the building.  Then you go IN to a run so the dog will hopefully pee/poo before the walk.  Then you go OUT of the run, and then OUT of the main gate, then walk, then back IN the backdoor of the building.  Each of these times I ask the dog to sit and wait until I go first and then "invite" (Cesar's word) the dog to follow.  We had this lab/Dane mix, Stitch, who I started calling The Gentleman because he caught on after the first try and from then on, always sat and waited for me to go first!

These are two small things I can do with every dog regardless of breed, size, or temperament.  What happens on the actual walk is anybody's guess because you really never know what you are going to be dealing with.

ORIGINAL: Angelique

Welcome to the CM forum. Please read the rules before participating.  []

This area is for the discussion of CM's philosophies, including the structured walk following his protocols - which is one of the foundations of his teachings.

The walk is a working dog exercise which is used to establish leadership, teach the dog to ignore distractions, keep the dog from issueing challenges to other dogs, challenge the dog mentally to focus on the human leader, and also for focused physical exercise.

Please do not derail this thread in favor of discussing alternative ways of "walking your dog", using alternative methods to achieve a simulated, food bribed "heel" position, or taking your dog for a casual "stroll".

I can already see where this is headed. []

**Content Removed - Off Topic**

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Dogs dont "walk all over" their owners BUT they set the discipline if they see you as a follower

The bites that she received were not of a disciplinary nature. 

MMMmmm let me see, dog is used to walk one way, the OP decides is time for a new type of walking, dog senses she is not 100% sure of what she is doing then does not like the idea, dog bites, IMO they were "disciplinary" bites

CM has being bitten before, no one should be ashamed of getting bitten, the OP is trying and those things happen

ORIGINAL: Xerxes


And shame on you for suggesting that the actions of an unpredictable animal were caused by her.

Only if the dog was "crazy" he would bite without reason, the OP tried to change his way of walking for better but the dog didnt like the idea so in a way it was caused by the OP BUT that actually does not have to be a bad thing to do, she actually was trying to do the right thing and got bitten because of it, it  happens even to the best behaviorist and not because of that we will think that behaviorist is a bad one

So i didnt suggest, i am actually saying thats what happened, she got bitten for trying to do the right thing, shame on me then indeed []

I can appreciate that:
1. the "Walk" is pretty much key to CMs philosophies and
2. it's the DOG'S needs that should be fulfilled first, rather than what makes the human happier. 
 
BUT, having said that, I see "BEING CALM" as even MORE cornerstone to CMs methods and anything that helps you to be calm has GOT to be positive and in tune with his methods. 
 
If you want to be in line with CMs advice and ALSO want to allow the beagle to sniff, why not get a focused "leadership walk" for a bit at the START of the walk, and then have a release word, "okay, go sniff" or something and allow him to wander and sniff.... if you see anything that might make him reactive or if he starts pulling/trying to go off the path/getting hyper/whatever, bring him back to the more focused style of walking until he appears calm and then "release" him to sniff again. 
 
If it were me, I'd just go with what you are currently doing and not give a fig about the sniffing.... UNLESS he seems very tense when he does it, lots of heavy breathing and "bog eyes".  If he is like that then I would agree with espence that this is not "happy" behaviour, although it is sometimes mistaken for it....I could be wrong but that signals to me a dog that is stressed out or frustrated.  I suppose you could say: "unbalanced".
 
Sorry if someone already suggested that, I didn't read all the replies.......

ORIGINAL: Liesje

What happened? he didnt like the idea of not being the one in control and thats why he did it (it sounds like this was a different dog from the beagle but the dog's feelings about you could be the same)

Dogs dont "walk all over" their owners BUT they set the discipline if they see you as a follower

Isn't that a contradiction?  The dog that bit me was very much under my control, he was at heel just behind me whether he liked that or not and I was not letting him sniff or walk off to the side at all.  So how could he be mad that I was in control AND think I was being the follower?  It's either one or the other.  I felt completely in control at the time, and even as he bit a few dozen times I did NOT let go of the lead or give him any slack.

 
I'm sorry, i tried to make another point with the "walk all over" sentence but it got mistaken as part of the same answer
 
Some dogs wont give up that easily and might tried to change the roles during the walk, in this video you can see that the dog started as a follower and CM was in control, then it came to a point where the dog could not stand it anymore and tried to do something to change it, in this video the dog started flipping like a fish, in your case was a bite
 
[linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpi8707WItc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpi8707WItc[/link]