Sniffing

MMMmmm let me see, dog is used to walk one way, the OP decides is time for a new type of walking, dog senses she is not 100% sure of what she is doing then does not like the idea, dog bites, IMO they were "disciplinary" bites
 

 
You are entitled to your opinion.  I've never seen a disciplinary bite be more than one or two snaps.  Not a full fledged attack.
 

  Only if the dog was "crazy" he would bite without reason, the OP tried to change his way of walking for better but the dog didnt like the idea so in a way it was caused by the OP BUT that actually does not have to be a bad thing to do, she actually was trying to do the right thing and got bitten because of it, it  happens even to the best behaviorist and not because of that we will think that behaviorist is a bad one

So i didnt suggest, i am actually saying thats what happened, she got bitten for trying to do the right thing, shame on me then indeed []

 
Sometimes I have no idea what you are talking about, espence.  This is one of those times.
 

So i didnt suggest, i am actually saying thats what happened

How can you know what happened if you weren't there?  I didn't "change" anything during the walk.  The dog saw a pit bull and totally flipped out at ME.  His leash reactivity was not a reaction to the style of walking; I got bit becase the wrong dog came along at the wrong time.  But it's really a moot point now because I've already discussed it with a professional behaviorist and we've come to our own conclusions about his behavior and his needs.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

So i didnt suggest, i am actually saying thats what happened

How can you know what happened if you weren't there?  I didn't "change" anything during the walk.  The dog saw a pit bull and totally flipped out at ME.  His leash reactivity was not a reaction to the style of walking; I got bit becase the wrong dog came along at the wrong time.  But it's really a moot point now because I've already discussed it with a professional behaviorist and we've come to our own conclusions about his behavior and his needs.

 
Oh well then why you didnt say that from the beginning???? []
 
You made it sound like suddenly he bit you while you were walking camly and without any reason

Expencer processed the information given to him using the CM philosphy as he understands it. There is no shame in that, in fact, we're here to learn CM methodology and apply it to "case studies", right? Nothing more, nothing personal. No one should have hurt feelings, this is theoretical!

We are here to apply the model of dog psychology to interpret a hypothetical situations. Thanks for your generous contributions espencer []

[sm=backtotopic.gif]

ORIGINAL: Chuffy
If you want to be in line with CMs advice and ALSO want to allow the beagle to sniff, why not get a focused "leadership walk" for a bit at the START of the walk, and then have a release word, "okay, go sniff" or something

That's what I'm thinking, some kind of ritual to start the interaction. Probably a different ritual for each dog. Perhaps tacking on a few minutes before the 20 minute walk to watch and assess the dog to decide "where he's at". The first thing Millan does is spend time evaluating the humans and the dog, then he makes an Rx to follow.

None of us enjoys instant dog followership like Millan does, so what do we do in the meantime to bridge that gap, especially if the whole relationship happens in 20 minutes? Liesje already has some pack leader protocol in place regarding this (see post 26). But I think the tough (and "mysterious") thing to get about "Cesar's Way" is that there is no one trick or technique to grab out of tool box to "fix" things. It's more a matter of attitude and expectations.

Thanks for your kind words Ixas []

Oh well then why you didnt say that from the beginning????

There's already a thread with all the relevant information in another forum.  The example is really only relevant to this discussion insofar as you can be as confident, as calm, and as controlled as possible but if a dog is leash reactive, your state of mind means about diddly.

I need a way to establish positive leadership over dogs when I have absolutely no control over their environments, what stimluli we'll encounter on the walk, or what types of training and methods they've already been exposed to (mostly to their detriment).  But I want a dog to see me as a leader because it is rewarding, not just because of the consequences.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

Oh well then why you didnt say that from the beginning????

There's already a thread with all the relevant information in another forum.  The example is really only relevant to this discussion insofar as you can be as confident, as calm, and as controlled as possible but if a dog is leash reactive, your state of mind means about diddly.

 
Well maybe you can include a link of that experience before posting to avoid misunderstandings like this one for those who dont know there is already a thread in another forum about it []
 
If the dog is leash reactive, your state of mind is actually a HUGE help to have the dog under control, just like CM shows in this video
 
[linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq4a9JS7X-A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq4a9JS7X-A[/link]
 

ORIGINAL: Liesje

But I want a dog to see me as a leader because it is rewarding, not just because of the consequences.

 
If you apply corrections with anger then the dog will be afraid of you BUT wont see you as leader, if you are calm and assertive then for her it will be rewarding to have someone like you as leader
 
The bad part is again the shelter, too many walkers establishing different techniques, sometiems he can walk in front some others are telling them not to do so, really confusing for the dogs, to be able to work as it should ALL of you would need to follow the same rules, not just some times yes and some times no

Well maybe you can include a link of that experience before posting to avoid misunderstandings like this one for those who dont know there is already a thread in another forum about it

If the dog is leash reactive, your state of mind is actually a HUGE help to have the dog under control, just like CM shows in this video

It's in General Chat, probably a few pages in now.  You can look for it there, but I really don't want to dicuss it any further here because his bites have nothing to do with sniffing (he has no interest in sniffing, only playing very rough), it's really off-topic since the dog that likes to sniff is not leash reactive (she doesn't really care either way about other dogs).  At any rate, the other dog also jumped on and bit the professional behaviorist under the same conditions.  No matter what state of mind we use, he lunges at the handler and it's very difficult to correct because of his size and strength.  You can only project your state of mind toward the dog you are handling.  We can't control whether or not the passing dog will give a look or gesture that invites the reactive dog to act aggressively towards his handler.  Right now, he's being kenneled with an assertive pit bull so that he can learn from another dog that his pushiness and aggression is not acceptable.  We don't know anything about his past so we can only assume he was never socialized or learned bite inhibition and is now acting like an 80lb puppy.

The bad part is again the shelter, too many walkers establishing different techniques, sometiems he can walk in front some others are telling them not to do so, really confusing for the dogs, to be able to work as it should ALL of you would need to follow the same rules, not just some times yes and some times no

Yes, I really think they need a better program for training volunteers and honestly, they should do more screening and training before one is accepted, rather than just accepting anyone who volunteers and signs the paperwork.  What some of the volunteers let the dogs get away with is really discouraging.

If you apply corrections with anger then the dog will be afraid of you BUT wont see you as leader, if you are calm and assertive then for her it will be rewarding to have someone like you as leader

So how about the correction itself?  I'm not really interested in nitpicking over "state of mind" because we're advocating for the same thing.  I agree with Cesar as far as being calm and assertive, using your mental state and body language to project leadership, etc.  You're preaching to the choir as far as that is concerned.  However, a correction is not the same as a reward, no matter what way you twist it.  []  All correction and no reward confuses and frustrates the dogs considering their shelter environment and constant level of anxiety.  Are you saying that you don't think it's possible to follow Cesar's methods if the dog is being rewarded for the correct behaviors?

Just a quick comment before I go out the door and let you guys get back on topic...[]
 
Espencer,
 
You really should read the entire thread regarding Liesje's attack by this dog.
 
There are some dogs who (for whatever reason) are very unpredictable. This dog came from behind and attacked Liesje with repeated bites and did not break it off.
 
One of the two dogs CM himself admits to not being able to help, also attacked from behind.
 
In some rare instances with certain dogs, this can happen regardless of the skill level or demeanor of the handler. []
 
But we won't really know because we weren't there.
 
 

ORIGINAL: Liesje

So how about the correction itself? 

 
What about it?, the correction is not a punishment, the correction is not painful if you are doing it right, therefore there is not need to be afraid of you, you are only communicating what you would like him to stop doing, i never said a correction is a reward
 

ORIGINAL: Liesje

All correction and no reward confuses and frustrates the dogs considering their shelter environment and constant level of anxiety.  Are you saying that you don't think it's possible to follow Cesar's methods if the dog is being rewarded for the correct behaviors?

 
A reward does not have to be food, it can be praising, it can be a massage, it can be get feed after the walk,  it can even be the fact of being walking!!! the feeling of walking next to the leader like a real pack fufill the dog's exercise and the need of feeling that he belongs to a balanced pack, the walking has a lot more of meaning for your dog that what you think
 
You can be praising the dog every time she didnt do something that she used to and you didnt like, that could be her reward []

the walking has a lot more of meaning for your dog that what you think

Er...ok, maybe I'll just have this thread deleted.  I'm not sure why you are assuming I don't think the walk is important?  I wouldn't be a Cesar fan or coming to this part of the forum if I thought the walk wasn't the most important time for bonding and establishing leadership.  It goes without saying!

And so, you'd agree that if a reward doesn't have to be a treat, sniffing can be a reward, no?

ORIGINAL: Liesje

I'm not sure why you are assuming I don't think the walk is important? 

 
I didnt say i dont think you know how important the walk is, i said that a walk has more meaning, one of those meanings is being a reward itself so actually you are rewarding your dog every time you take her for a walk, or what do you think it is if she is on her kennel most of the day? [] a reward of course, for what? she would not know but it sure feels like one []
 
 

ORIGINAL: Liesje
And so, you'd agree that if a reward doesn't have to be a treat, sniffing can be a reward, no?

 
YES!! and thats how i do it with my dog, i apply NILIF during the walk, you give me 10 minutes of a great walk and i will give you 10 minutes to sniff as much as you want

Liesje, so, you spend about 20 minutes with a dog, and then you do other chores around the shelter?
If I had 20 minutes with *a dog*, I'd sure would take her natural breed tendencies into consideration - that's what gives them pleasure and confidence. I wouldn't use leash corrections on a dog who hasn't found me worth being with yet: "Who are you? Let me go to Charlene, she's cooler."

It's important to realize that's you are serving an intermediary role in these dogs' lives, and you are preparing them for their new families.

CM rehabilitates dogs. Sounds like that Beagle is a normal healthy doggy, with a lot of Beagle-energy pumping through: "Smells... smells!" But you'd be a better judge of that.

With a Beagle, I'd come and show her - "It's me, remember?" You can do a little playful thing that only the two of know about - like a secret hand shake. If you have an enclosed yard there, you can show up with something stinky - a dirty ball or something like that, hide it and let her find it... she'll love doing search-and-find. Next time she'll see you, you'll do this little secret hand shake, and she'll think "That's the one I like! Let me go with her!" That will be your first step. Ideally, you'd want to start teaching her leash manners, and I think you could ask more of her after she's had a good game with you, rather than right after getting out of a boring kennel...

Now I am thinking, exercise is a solution to a lot of problems in dogs, so walking is a good exercise. Unless a structured walk is a problem, then you have to be already exercised to do it well... (I am talking to myself.)

Liesje, so, you spend about 20 minutes with a dog, and then you do other chores around the shelter?

We spend about 20 minutes with each dog we walk/run.  My job is to walk them fast or run/jog them.  Someone else cleans their kennel, feeds them, takes them out in a run to play, etc.  There's always this other lady there on my shifts and she prefers to be indoors so she cleans kennels, changes bedding, gives them kongs, and brushes them.  We're also encouraged to work on basic obedience, but they have trainers and a behaviorist who are supposed to teach them because our main goal (for my particular volunteer position) is getting them a 20 minute workout.  We're supposed to go in order as much as possible, but I like it varied so for example after I walked that Beagle I took out a very large lab mix who was very stubborn, then after him I went with a very agreeable Shih Tzu, then a more boisterous pit bull, etc.  They tend to keep the dogs kenneled in order of different energy levels and behavioral problems, so if you do go in order you can get really worn out and frustrated pretty quickly having to deal with all the problem cases at once when our job is not rehab (though it's a part of what we do.  I'm not a trained or qualified behaviorist so I don't feel comfortable making those kinds of decisions).