Sniffing

Interesting point.  Just because you like particular person's philosophy in general, doesn't mean you have to follow every iota of advice that person gives.  Even in the presence of highly regarded trainers, I regard myself as the final arbiter of how my dogs are treated, and I am the one who must live with the results I create.  To be honest, if we are just out for an exercise walk, I often let my dogs sniff anything they want to - after all, scent is their most used and important sense, just as vision is to us.  But, if I want to practice heeling or down stays, I simply ask them to stop sniffing and pay attention to the work at hand, which they do.  If a dog is well trained, and responds to your wishes, I don't think that letting them sniff things as they walk is going to kill that relationship.  JMO

I have to agree with Anne 100% on this one.  When I take Max out for a walk, the walk is mainly for his enjoyment - and sniffing is a big part of that enjoyment.  Sometimes he'll completely circle a tree, sniffing up and down all sides. Since I frequently stop to chat with friends and Max sits patiently waiting for the gab fest to be over, I figure the least I can do is let him have his fun too.  I've gotten a little lax with the training lately, but when I do remember I try to do it at home where he won't be distracted by two legged and four legged friends and a multitude of squirrels.
 
Joyce

Welcome to the CM forum. Please read the rules before participating.  []

This area is for the discussion of CM's philosophies, including the structured walk following his protocols - which is one of the foundations of his teachings.

The walk is a working dog exercise which is used to establish leadership, teach the dog to ignore distractions, keep the dog from issueing challenges to other dogs, challenge the dog mentally to focus on the human leader, and also for focused physical exercise.

Please do not derail this thread in favor of discussing alternative ways of "walking your dog", using alternative methods to achieve a simulated, food bribed "heel" position, or taking your dog for a casual "stroll".

I can already see where this is headed. []

Liesje,

FYI, here are six other threads where this topic has been discussed:

[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=324432]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=324432[/link]
[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=284617]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=284617[/link]
[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=296612]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=296612[/link]
[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=306886]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=306886[/link]
[linkhttp://forum.com/asp/tm.asp?m=225845]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=225845[/link]

I'm sure the Cesareenies will all be glad to contribute additional information and clarification (based on personal experience) to the discussion in order to help specify the importance of this exercise. []

CM talks about this exact subject and about this exact breed:

[linkhttp://cesarmillaninc.com/blog/Season2ep13.php]http://cesarmillaninc.com/blog/Season2ep13.php[/link]

Basically there is times for everything, you have to fufill your dogs needs with exercises for that specific breed and there are other times where the dog needs to be focused on the walk, by sniffing the beagle wont be focused, therefore he would be over estimulated or over excited during the walk (which is not the same as being happy, kind of a doggy "sugar rush") wich actually would be the opposite as being balanced and the point of doing exersice will be lost (going back to the example of taking your kid to a Chucky Cheese to "exercise" instead of a soccer practice)

In an episode where a beagle was doing exactly that, CM did exercises with the beagle where he was able to track a toy in the backyard, that way the beagle fufilled his need of sniffing and during the walk the dog walked fine without feeling the need of having his nose sticked to the ground

Now also we have to have in mind that the Beagle could be actually not as much exersiced as we tought, when some dogs have extra energy acumulated then they use their breed to burn that extra energy, beagles would sniff or bark, pitbulls could become aggressive, retreivers could dig, etc. The bad part is that by doing that those dogs wont burn much of that extra energy and thats why they need to be focused on the walk, to burn as much as they can and dont be frustrated when they return home

So as you can see, the fact of being sniffing that much could not always mean he is happy but actually frustrated and the only way they know how to burn that energy is doing what they were breed for

Here is a part of that beagle episode

[linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz0HFJUuZw4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz0HFJUuZw4[/link]

Finally, CM teachings are NOT actually to have the human as a happy leader but to think about the dog's needs FIRST and then fufill your own needs you could have when you have a dog, is actually all about the dog first even when you could think is not

ORIGINAL: Liesje
  I guess in general, I feel more calm and relaxed when I go out on a limb a little bit, give the dog some slack, let it be what it is than constantly having to physically dominate the dog.  That, and I want the dog to enjoy itself.  

If you feel more calm, then why bother with physically dominating the dog period?

My dog is trained and as long as he obeys me, he is allowed to do what he wants, be it sniffing, walking with his head erect, or watching the ponies as we walk. Unless he is under a direct command to watch me, i dont care where his eyes are, what his mind is thinking.

When I walk him for pleasure - why can't we BOTh enjoy the walk? If I decide to go for a walk to enjoy the weather and the scenery and such, why stress us both out by being concerned about where his head is and how many inches in front of my leg he is? This isn't precision heeling, this isn't a competition. This is me and my dog, and if he isn't pulling and I haven't instructed him in any other manner, then what is the problem? The crux being that if I do give him an exam (to get into heel, sit, down, etc) he listens immediately.

Why bother with constantly physically dominating your dog period? I think my point is, I can enjoy my dog without constantly reminding him that I am bigger, better and badder than him.

Please read the rules of the CM section before participating. []

ORIGINAL: Liesje

OK, here's something that's been bugging me as I catch up on CM episodes (I'm halfway through season 2) - he always says not to let the dog sniff the ground unless YOU decide he can, or go halfway through the walk and then let the dog start sniffing has he pleases.

Yes. This is what CM says. The dog can sniff, explore, poop, pee, roll in the grass, pull you on a skateboard, track, ect...when you give the release command for free-time or give the dog a task to perform.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

In all actuality, is a dog really going to develop a superiority complex if it's allowed to sniff?  Say you've got a dog that's pretty well behaved, doesn't necessarily walk absolutely at heel or right behind, but isn't jumping around or pulling, and he likes to sniff as he walks.  Not so much stop and sniff, just keep his nose on the ground.  Is it really so important to only let him do it when you say? 

Yes it is. You are the leader (dominant being) the dog is the follower (subordinant being), you saying when and where is part of CM's leadership protocol during the structured walk.

Constantly worrying about a dog developing a superiority complex will not put you into the correct frame of mind you need to have to benefit the dog.

The dog is not looking to "take over". He is looking to see if you are leadership material or not, though. []

ORIGINAL: Liesje

Here's my problem - I really enjoy Cesar's insights on dog psychology in general, but I have real trouble following through with some of these methods because 1) in most areas of life I prefer to "pick my battles" and 2) if I really tried to control EVERY single action or reaction the dog tries or does, I would be physically and emotionally exhusted after five minutes of walking!!

If you use the walk correctly, there will be fewer "battles" in other areas of the entire relationship you will need to pick from.

This is not about controlling every single action in a dog's life. This is a working dog exercise where you expect compliance until you release the dog to have free time or ask them to perform another task.

It takes effort on the human's part in the beginning. However, anything worth doing well is worth the effort for those who apply themselves.

ORIGINAL: Liesje 

Here's the example that got me thinking - Thursday I returned to normal duties at the shelter (following some time off after the bite incident).  It was a gorgeous day and I was the only dog volunteer so the dogs were relatively calm and I had the place to myself.  Our shelter has a large pond with a dog path around it.  Since it was nice out and the trees finally have leaves, the flowers are blooming, I decided to use the pond path.  I started with this Beagle mix and being a Beagle, she kept her nose to the ground and since she was not pulling, I have her the entire 6' so I wasn't stepping on her (she wanted to be in the middle of the path, not the side).  Cesar would probably say "no, keep her next to you and keep her head up", but it's a Beagle!  They live to sniff!  Now if she started pulling or got on a scent and wanted to go off the path, I said "ah ah!", gave her a little correction, and kept on going the direction I wanted to go.  By allowing her to do what a Beagle dog does best, I had more time to clear my own mind and relax.

Do what you need to do to relax, it will help if you are not tense or uptight before moving into the "zone". But once you start the structured walk, insist that the dog comply for a period of time before releasing him for free (sniff) time.

With these confused and displaced shelter dogs who have been cooped up all day, you are not working with your own dog whom you live with. Also, others will be walking this dog. In these specific situations I would allow some flexibility and latitude on what I would expect of the dog due to the circumstances.

You should still use a bit of the structured walk when you are with these dogs, just be aware of their situation and adjust it accordingly with each dog, and keep the structured periods brief.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

I feel like the sniffing thing is one of a few examples of where Cesar's methods make me MORE tense because I'm constantly having to watch for this or that and immediately correct this and that.  I know he says "animal, dog, breed..." and I shouldn't say "Oh it's a Beagle, you have to let it keep its nose to the ground!" but what really would I gain from having held her up against my left side, head up?

What did I lose by giving her some slack (literally and figuratively) and just let her be an inquisitive Beagle?  Did she try to control me by pulling me and biting me?  No!  She was a happy dog with a look that said "Oh my God I can't stand being locked in a cement cell all day, thanks for letting me get some air and some sniffing in!" 

I completely understand! []

Again, I would allow some latitude with these shelter dogs. Adjust it as you see fit with each dog.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

I guess in general, I feel more calm and relaxed when I go out on a limb a little bit, give the dog some slack, let it be what it is than constantly having to physically dominate the dog.  That, and I want the dog to enjoy itself.  

I often run into confusion of the words "dominate", "dominant", and "dominance". These words are often used inappropriatly by the anti-CM crowd (as evidenced by post #7) to stir up emotions, inflame, and sidetrack their correct applications in the appropriate context.

This isn't about "dominating" the dog in a "Kitten with a Whip" sense. [8D]

In this situation you want to be seen by the dog as the "dominant" (leader) being, not the "subordinant" (follower) being. There is no equality in a dog's mind, you are either one or the other.

With a naturally "submissive" dog, this is usually a lot easier than with a dog who is naturally "dominant" by nature, but you still need be seen as a leader for the security, stability, and emotional benefit of a dog which you live with, IMO.

Most dogs fall somewhere in the middle of this spectrum, and are looking to be lead. These middle range dogs usually don't take the leadership (dominant) position unless the human is behaving as a follower (subordinant)...so they get put in this position by default.

Being viewed as a leader by the dog, has far more to do with what you project about yourself than anything you physically do to the dog. []


 
 

Fantastic post, espencer!

Especially:

ORIGINAL: espencer
when some dogs have extra energy acumulated then they use their breed to burn that extra energy, beagles would sniff or bark, pitbulls could become aggressive, retreivers could dig, etc. The bad part is that by doing that those dogs wont burn much of that extra energy and thats why they need to be focused on the walk, to burn as much as they can and dont be frustrated when they return home

So as you can see, the fact of being sniffing that much could not always mean he is happy but actually frustrated and the only way they know how to burn that energy is doing what they were breed for

That's a really solid use of Millan's principles to explain observed behavior and reasons for responding to it in a specific way.

[sm=bravo.gif]

ORIGINAL: Angelique
Again, I would allow some latitude with these shelter dogs. Adjust it as you see fit with each dog.

It would be worthwhile to think about *how* to give lattitude. If permissiveness fails to provide the dog ease and shelter under good leadership, then accomadation is harmful to the dog. Perhaps being extra calm and relaxed is the way to be nicer to the dog (i.ie, being extra careful to not let yourself get frustrated and give off that kind of energy).

It's worth noting, too, that Millan can provide calm assertive leadership to a dog from moment one, so it doesn't take the dog long to enjoy the benefits of calm submission. If it takes perhaps a few sessions with a dog for Leisje to establish the same thing, then she'll want to figure out how to manage the relationship while she works on setting the terms. Perhaps the lattitude should be geared towards the dog's special needs, and also to accomodate her getting up to speed.

So what kinds of accomodations would support the dog? What would ensure the walk experience is a relief from the anxiety state the dog has all day, isolated in a kennel?:
Allowing extra sniffing throughout the walk? Not if it maintains anxiety expression and provides no relief real for the dog.
Let the dog walk with a toy in its mouth?
Play a tracking game before the walk?

ORIGINAL: Angelique
With a naturally "submissive" dog, this is usually a lot easier than with a dog who is naturally "dominant" by nature, but you still need be seen as a leader for the security, stability, and emotional benefit of a dog which you live with, IMO.

Oyi submissive enticement! I wonder if submissive dogs are actually harder, they appeal to our nurturing instincts and woo us to cave in. [8D]

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

Fantastic post, espencer!

Especially:

ORIGINAL: espencer
when some dogs have extra energy acumulated then they use their breed to burn that extra energy, beagles would sniff or bark, pitbulls could become aggressive, retreivers could dig, etc. The bad part is that by doing that those dogs wont burn much of that extra energy and thats why they need to be focused on the walk, to burn as much as they can and dont be frustrated when they return home

So as you can see, the fact of being sniffing that much could not always mean he is happy but actually frustrated and the only way they know how to burn that energy is doing what they were breed for

That's a really solid use of Millan's principles to explain observed behavior and reasons for responding to it in a specific way.

[sm=bravo.gif]

 
Ditto! And a big [sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif][sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif][sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif] from me too! []

Please read the rules of the CM section before participating.

**Content Removed - Off Topic**

Thank you, spiritdogs.  I had no intention of criticizing Cesar's methods or trying to start any debate over which method is "right".  What I'm really wondering (which I should have bolded or asked more explicitly in my original post) is, what did I lose by allowing the dog to do what it did?  Because according to Cesar, what I did was wrong and I gave the dog the opporunity to walk all over me and think she is the leader of the pack, etc.  But, that didn't happen.  So how would Cesar explain that?  I broke two of his rules: I let the dog sniff because she's a Beagle, and I let my human emotions get in the way so I felt sorry for the dog because it's kept in a cement kennel all day.  I didn't correct the dog for sniffing or walking ahead of me, and yet I felt more in control and more relaxed than ever before.  See, what I'm struggling with right now is this whole control and leadership issue, because two weeks ago I tried the whole not-letting-the-dog-make-decisions and gotta-keep-him-right-at-heel thing and what happened?  The dog jumped on me and bit me so hard my 260lb husband had to pull him off.  Every time I challenge myself to establish leadership, correct the dog before it can even make a mistake, force it to walk at heel....I really do not enjoy myself and I end up with a dog that is edgey at best, acting aggressively out of frustration at worst.  With the Beagle, all I had to do was trust her just enough to give her a chance to show me that she can be a good dog, and she was!

ETA:  I know the problem is really with me.  I'm competitive, but I like to constantly push from behind rather than hold onto the lead and do just good enough that no one can catch me.  Being an assertive, aggressive leader is something I've never been.  I've always lead by example and by applying pressure to whatever is ahead of me, but I need something ahead of me to compare myself to and strive towards.  Once I get there, I'm lost.  I don't do something unless I can do it flawlessly; I'm a perfectionist and it's been my downfall more often than not.  When I apply this to working with dogs, trying to force myself into a position where I'm supposed to dominate (especially physically dominate) is what causes me stress and anxiety.  Maybe I'm missing something, but it's really hard for me to be the pack leader just by using Cesar's method of envisioning leadership because there is dissonance between my concept of leadership and his concept of the pack leader.

No matter whose theories you espouse, one thing that often happens is that you (not you, personally, but anyone - the colloquial "you") haven't the same timing, or technique that the expert has.  On the clicker threads, people sometimes refer to how they felt encumbered by trying to hold the clicker, the leash and the treats all at once, but once they gained experience in the method it became much easier.  I'm sure that "the walk" isn't much different in that sense.  If you are going to use "the walk" with corrections, or the little kickbutt thing that Cesar does, it surely takes some timing and finesse to be effective at it, especially if you are new to the technique.  After all, you didn't just hop on a bicycle and learn to ride, most probably.  Nor did you likely take your first swim by diving off the high board.  The ability to apply a technique is really a separate issue from just the philosophical differences that people express with any method, although you are certainly entitled to your opinions on both the ones you tried.
In answer to your question about whether you lost anything, I don't think so.  I think that it's quite possible that your dog still realizes that you are in charge if other aspects of your relationship are fine.  If you remind me, over on the clicker threads so I don't hijack here, I'll be happy to tell you why I think so.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

Because according to Cesar, what I did was wrong and I gave the dog the opporunity to walk all over me and think she is the leader of the pack, etc.  But, that didn't happen.

Actually she is the one in control, not you, why? because of stuff like this:

ORIGINAL: Liesje
because two weeks ago I tried the whole not-letting-the-dog-make-decisions and gotta-keep-him-right-at-heel thing and what happened?  The dog jumped on me and bit me so hard my 260lb husband had to pull him off.

What happened? he didnt like the idea of not being the one in control and thats why he did it (it sounds like this was a different dog from the beagle but the dog's feelings about you could be the same)

Dogs dont "walk all over" their owners BUT they set the discipline if they see you as a follower

ORIGINAL: Liesje
I didn't correct the dog for sniffing or walking ahead of me, and yet I felt more in control and more relaxed than ever before. 

You felt more relaxed because you didnt have to control anything, you just let your dog whatever she wanted to do, you were actually not in control at all, it has to be the opposite way

The papers have to change BUT the good news is that you could do it by being relaxed while you are in control at the same time, just remember, the way you feel when you want to be in control (stressed and anxious) is the way your dog feels when you are not the leader, the way you feel when you let your dog do whatever (relaxed) is what your dog should feel when she is the follower

Do you want your dog to have those stressfull or anxious emotions everytime while you just enjoy the ride? she is telling you thats the way she feels but you dont see it, that PLUS the fact of having pent up energy for being in a cement kennel the whole day

ORIGINAL: Liesje

With the Beagle, all I had to do was trust her just enough to give her a chance to show me that she can be a good dog, and she was!

Again, she was because she was the one controlling the walk and you were behaving like a good follower, that if we dont take under consideration the excesive sniffing for being caged most of the day

ORIGINAL: Liesje

When I apply this to working with dogs, trying to force myself into a position where I'm supposed to dominate (especially physically dominate) is what causes me stress and anxiety. 

Perfect example of why the dog bit you, he knows you are stressed and anxious, therfore you dont have confidence of your self, therefore you are not a leader and he can not trust to make decisions

You have it backwards, it is NOT about "I have to be a leader", "I need to be in control" is more about "i have to be a leader so my dog can be balanced", "i need to be in control so my dog dont have to be stressed making decisions", get it? this is about your dog needs, and what she needs is a leader, you have to do this so you can help your dog