Skittish Dogs/"Living in the Past"...

ORIGINAL: Angelique

Maybe espencer can find a link for you. []

 
Well, what about this one? almost showing exactly what we are talking about []
 
[linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZhR20nadFY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZhR20nadFY[/link]

Yay espencer, the king of links[sm=wink2.gif]

[8D]

espence, great vid, thanks!

Oh, and sheesh, those 25 cent leashes seem to have gone up to 35 cents, hehee.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

Ok, then, you're on! But you strike me as a truly golden odd bird, so I imagine you'll outshine us all! []

I sniff stuff, too. Agreed, it's effective. Agreed the neigbors: [sm=eek.gif]

I also shrug a lot. Somehow she gets that as a cue for "blah, that's boring"

I stare at certain things when I want her to ignore certain other things.

While teaching my dog how to play with other dogs, we praised her for sniffing them and being sniffed. I took this practice home and have play sessions with her in which we do "sniffing" [:'(] I also amped that up into sessions with play biting - I'll sniff near her butt then give her playbites with my fingers that are held close to my face ... at first she withdrew from them, but now it's just part of play. (no, I don't let her mouth me back)

I do calming signals to my dog, like blinking, yawning, lip licking. I play bow to my dog. During play I'll lay on my back with feet and hands up, and play bite her leg, then when she's on her back I play bite her belly, sides, and face.

When she's being obsessive over our backyard squirrel, I throw gravel at it to make it go away, my dog follows me around even more after I do that, and she's been obsessing less. (no, I don't hurt the squirrel)

We "talk" to each other: morning howling with the alarm bells, growly excited talk before meals and going out for adventures, happy yippy play talk. I've been using barky, growly sounds in my search for alternatives to "no" and "eh eh". Yeah, the neighbors: [sm=eek.gif]

Yep! I'm a sniffer too! [8D]

I don't do the lip-licking or any other "submissive" type gestures, though. I think it sends confusing signals to the dog regarding our leadership/followership positions.

One thing that I've noticed is there are certain behaviors that pack members (and social animals in general) communicate clearly and pay attention to within their group...

These are signals which help ensure the survival of the group. An alert to danger, an alert to territorial boundaries being breached and needing defense, and an alert to food and water sources.

When living with our dogs, they will alert us to these things naturally, but then we take over and give them signals which indicate our decisions regarding the alert.

This is the cucial moment. Our dogs are watching us closely for our actions and assessments in these situations as packmates, but even more so if we are seen as leaders, IMO.

They also watch us very carefully to see if we alert to danger in particular.

Many years ago, I used to "trick" my old lab into being friendly by how I would greet people. She clearly trusted me, I was clearly her leader, so I used that to help put her at ease around the vet and folks she didn't know. []

I've have met lenty of dogs who are so confused and completely lacking in respect or trust in their owner's leadership, they just make all of the decisions on their own and treat their owners like wall-paper.

These dogs do as they darn well please. The dog is making all of the decisions, with the owners simply functioning in the reactionary position or adding fuel to the fire of whatever the dog is doing. Yikes!

ORIGINAL: adogwhisperer

People talk about dogs "living in the moment". What do you think that means? Do you think dogs are able to remember the past or anticipate the future?

Brad Higgins

 
I think dogs do live in the moment. This does not mean that they don't have memories or carry any associations (classical conditioning) they have learned from past experiences.
 
They just don't carry u-hauls emotional baggage and can thus move on more easily than humans from unpleasant experiences...as long as we dump our emotional baggage and help them do it. [] 
 
I don't think they project into the future, especially emotionally. They do respond to patterns, cues, and associations indicating a point during their daily routine or an event to come, though.
 
 

Actually, there are times when I think "how the he&& do we know what they really think?
Maybe they really are plotting a coup.
[sm=rotfl.gif]

ORIGINAL: adogwhisperer

People talk about dogs "living in the moment". What do you think that means? Do you think dogs are able to remember the past or anticipate the future?

Brad Higgins

 
Two good examples:
 
My girlfriend raised to brother labs from the time they were 6 weeks until they were 5 years old.  She had to find them new home because her son developed asthma as a result of allergies from the pets.  Her friend took both dogs.  After one month she decided to go visit with them but was afraid they would freak out from seeing her and missing her.  HOWEVER, they didn#%92t even greet her hello or act as if they knew who she was..   She was crushed – she was just another visitor in their eyes!
 
 
Imprinting fears is different IMO.  My own previous dog was severely afraid of thunder, really bad!  I believe it was because when he was only 9 weeks old I took him to a 4th of July picnic with me and there were fireworks.  At the time, he didn#%92t seem to be afraid and I thought I was doing something good by exposing him to loud noises.  But as he grew older he got more and more and more afraid of thunder and lightening and I believe it was because he was imprinted early with that fear.  Now, if I were to continue to expose him to that noise maybe something different would have become of it but since I didn#%92t I made him afraid.  My dog now, was never around fireworks as a pup or any loud pooping noises and he doesn#%92t even give thunder a thought.  Fireworks make him a little unsure but not fearful, I believe because he was 1.5 years old before we exposed him to any really frightful noises

But you strike me as a truly golden odd bird, so I imagine you'll outshine us all!

No, I think *you* won the gold-star:

While teaching my dog how to play with other dogs, we praised her for sniffing them and being sniffed. I took this practice home and have play sessions with her in which we do "sniffing" I also amped that up into sessions with play biting - I'll sniff near her butt then give her playbites with my fingers that are held close to my face ... at first she withdrew from them, but now it's just part of play. (no, I don't let her mouth me back)

[sm=biggrin.gif]

Besides sniffing on all four in the hallways (quickly, before somebody comes out of their apartment)... we play a "gentle" version of tug and I hold his toys with my teeth. I get in the bath tab with my dog (standing up!) while he is being cleaned... that we can play in water. This does sound like a good topic for another thread [8D].

ORIGINAL: TinaK
Besides sniffing on all four in the hallways (quickly, before somebody comes out of their apartment)... we play a "gentle" version of tug and I hold his toys with my teeth. I get in the bath tab with my dog (standing up!) while he is being cleaned... that we can play in water. This does sound like a good topic for another thread [8D].

[sm=bow2.gif]

ORIGINAL: Angelique
I don't do the lip-licking or any other "submissive" type gestures, though. I think it sends confusing signals to the dog regarding our leadership/followership positions.

I hear you, and I've thought about that. Millan would definately not approve!

My thinking, for now: neither Ixa nor I have much experience with dogs. I'm thinking that whatever "dog behaviors" I can enact with her in play are useful for her in her socializing sessions at the dog daycare. I have a book on calming signals, so that's the biggest part of "doggy vocabulary" I know. OTOH, I know that I do present flipfloppy leadership for Ixa, I'm calm assertive one moment, then nursery room playmate the next. I need to learn more about "dominant" and "neutral" type geestures.

It will be interesting to see whether or not the display of calming signals relates to dog's ranking. That brings up the point about submissive vs. calming.

ORIGINAL: TinaK

Besides sniffing on all four in the hallways (quickly, before somebody comes out of their apartment)... we play a "gentle" version of tug and I hold his toys with my teeth. I get in the bath tab with my dog (standing up!) while he is being cleaned... that we can play in water. This does sound like a good topic for another thread [8D].

He-he-he! That's funny! []

When I first got online before I came to the CM section, I saw the "Scratching and smelling" thread in the General Disscussion area and thought it was yours, Tina! [8D]

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

ORIGINAL: Angelique
I don't do the lip-licking or any other "submissive" type gestures, though. I think it sends confusing signals to the dog regarding our leadership/followership positions.

I hear you, and I've thought about that. Millan would definately not approve!

My thinking, for now: neither Ixa nor I have much experience with dogs. I'm thinking that whatever "dog behaviors" I can enact with her in play are useful for her in her socializing sessions at the dog daycare. I have a book on calming signals, so that's the biggest part of "doggy vocabulary" I know. OTOH, I know that I do present flipfloppy leadership for Ixa, I'm calm assertive one moment, then nursery room playmate the next. I need to learn more about "dominant" and "neutral" type geestures.

I figured you probably already knew to be careful about sending mixed messages. []

My own dog knew nothing about "playful" behavior signals when I got her. She learned quickly with her dog buddies, and then caught onto mine. It's come in real handy if she startles at something. Sometimes I just ignore her reaction and move on unbothered, and sometimes I just do a little play bounce like the noise or movement didn't bother me at all. Kinda of weird how it works, but it does!

Besides the play bow this little bouncy "chase me - catch me" movement is great for indicating a play session. It's when the dog lays their ears way back (as if scared - Oh look! I'm a scared little prey item!) and does a little bounce to get the game rolling. Now, I can't move my ears, but I've got the response bounce down pretty good. []

I prefer to think of "calming signals" in the greater context of "canine language", and I think that if they are used like "conversation", it's fine for a leader to occasionally tell a subordinate that there is nothing to fear.  I have seen my more dominant dogs do this with lower ranking dogs, so I'm not that concerned if I do it once in a great while.  And, I suspect that a fearful dog might like to know that the leader intends him no harm, or is sorry for stepping on his paw accidentally. []

I did a Google search on calming signals vs submissive signals, and here is what I found onhttp://www.amnh.org/nationalcenter/youngnaturalistawards/2000/claire.html .

Calming signals can be classified into two categories, signals that have their origin in infantile behavior, known as redirected behavior patterns, and complete concealment of aggression (Abrantes, Dog Language, 1997). Examples of redirected behaviors are pawing, play position, and muzzle-nudging (Abrantes, Dog Language, 1997). Calming signals that rely on the concealment of aggression are turning the head, licking the nose or air, and walking in a curve (Rigaas, 1997).

From my observations, I concluded that frequent use of calming signals is not dependent on the social rank of the wolf. Rather, these signals are used far more often than originally expected. The data suggests that certain wolves, such as Daughter Wolf, take the role of peacemaker, making it their duty to downplay aggression and comfort their peers. The data also indicates that relations within a wolf pack are indeed extremely complex.

Have you tried pretend-crying in front of your dog? I have. He was playing - having zoomies to be precise, and, when I laid there "in pain", he immediately dropped his toys and laid on his belly next to me - nose to nose, head down, eyes averted from me. The inside corners of his eyes were raised up a bit - he looked sad. I pretended I am better and prized him. We went back to playing, etc. I think at that time he wasn't being submissive - he was calming me. [8|]