Skittish Dogs/"Living in the Past"...

My dog is just dispositionally very timid (unless he was abused the breeder, which I think is highly unlikely as from all I can tell he was gotten from a very reputable breeder). If he's sleeping near me while I'm reading a book and I turn the page very quickly, he'll jump up and move to the other side of the bed/couch/floor. He doesn't like loud noises, and is intimidated by a lot of large (to him) objects. If I put something down on the ground near him like a large plastic bone (designed for a big dog), instead of going up to investigate it, he'll take a token sniff while obviously very anxious and then slink away from it as if he's afraid it's going to hurt him. I truly believe in this case it's not at all "living in the past" (as I don't think he has any sordid past, and he was quite timid when he came home at 11 or 12 weeks of age) but just that he's dispositionally sensitive and he's tiny, so most normal objects can look like threats.

Edit: sorry, I forgot part of your question. I have not been using "Caesar's methods" (as honestly I don't really know what they are, and in general I don't agree with his many philosophies, but feel free to enlighten me as to what he thinks you should do for a constantly skittish dog). I do "correct" my dog's behavior from time to time, but never physically. If he's doing something I don't like and I say softly, "Heyyy" in a low voice and frown, he immediately knows I'm not happy and stops what he's doing. Then I try to redirect (if he's chewing on my undies, for example, I frown at him for chewing the undies, take them away, hand him a chew toy, and then get really excited when he plays with it). When I first inherited my dog, I once caught him chewing my undies and made the mistake of yelling out, "No!" in a loud voice. He practically peed himself and hid from me for several hours. I felt terrible, and have been very, very gentle with him ever since. I don't think fearfulness is an excuse for having an undisciplined dog, but "discipline" can be achieved in many different ways, and I prefer to work on ways that build his confidence and trust in me. I do let him know when I'm unhappy, but very gently, and that's all he needs.

Edited (again) to add: after watching the shiny floors episode, I do think Caesar has a point about not making a big deal out of potentially scary events or "babying" dogs too much. Sort of like the old "get back up on the horse" after a fall idea. But I don't necessarily see how that approach could help a dog who is skittish pretty much all of the time, as opposed to afraid of particular things. What would Caesar say about dogs who are afraid of everything?

Your post raises an interesting question. Perhaps the issue of traumatic events lasting longer than they seem they should has something to do with those "critical periods" in puppy development? Like if something particularly upsetting happens during a certain development stage, it could affect the psychological/physiological growth of the pup? Perhaps folks who know about puppies can confirm/deny/pontificate. []

Since you are not familiar with Cesar's methods and I didn't really elaborate (sorry!) what I mean there is ignoring the dog when it is acting terrified and praising or rewarding the dog when it is acting calm.  When most inexperienced owners see their dog acting scared, they treat it like a baby going "ooooh, poor baby!  Come here and let mommy pet you..." and so on, but showing them attention and affection actually reinforces their fear and insecurity.  The second part of the problem is not only are they reinforcing fear, but they are presenting no other alternative.  The dog should be praise, given attention, and rewarded when it acts calmly and appropriately, NOT when it is acting scared and doing bad things out of fear.  Picking up a small dog when it is cowering or barking at other people out of fear would be another example of reinforcing the insecurity of the dog.  Giving a dog a treat if it is whining during a thunder storm, etc.  I think what he's trying to say is that no matter what our intentions a dog just cannot make the correlation "Oh, I am being comforted, therefore I should feel OK and stop doing this behavior even though they are being extra nice while I'm doing it."  Instead the dog thinks "Oh, but they're cooing at me and scratching my head if I growl at strangers and cry during a thunder storm so I should keep doing this in order to keep getting their affections."

Cesar argues that dogs don't really carry any lasting traumas like humans do.  If a dog is beaten and then continues to act skittish or do bad things out of fear, then according to him it's because the new owner has either reinforced this behavior and/or not rewarding the positive, alternative behavior.  They live in the moment and adjust very quickly to whatever the owner is reinforcing at the current time.


I should also say, this has been on my mind because soon I am bringing home a dog that had one very traumatic experience and since then has developed a fear of men.  I'm trying to decide the best way to approach this problem.  I feel like Cesar would say "Enough, she needs to start getting over it from day one." But since I'm not as confident (outwardly) as him and don't have as much experience, I feel like if I go at it like this from day one but do it incorrectly, it will damage the dog even more.

I feel like Cesar would say "Enough, she needs to start getting over it from day one."

From my very limited viewing of his show, it seems like Caesar kind of goes for "quick fixes." Which makes sense, since it's a TV show, it's hard to show a month-long behavioral program that wouldn't bore people to tears. I think the key in your sentence was *start* getting over it. You can start working on the fear from the first moment you pick Chop up, but that doesn't mean you have to expect instant results. []

If it were me personally with a man-phobic dog, I'd get started on a desensitization program ASAP (a la Cautious Canine) - gradually increasing the dog's comfort level with the feared object - but I'm under the impression that gradual desensitization is not big in the C.M. way of thinking. I think it's still possible to not reinforce the undesirable behavior while still being understanding of the dog's phobia and taking it gently. (Like you wouldn't throw a kid who's afraid of water into the deep end of the pool, but you might make them sit down at the edge for a while, and then eventually dunk a toe in, etc.)

Since the dog seems to have come from a situation that wasn't ideal, it could be that she simply has a fearful or shy temperament made worse by lack of proper socialization and training.  Newbies often pick the pup that seems nervous or afraid, because they feel bad for it, yet they are the least equipped to handle such a dog successfully.  

Since the dog seems to have come from a situation that wasn't ideal, it could be that she simply has a fearful or shy temperament made worse by lack of proper socialization and training. Newbies often pick the pup that seems nervous or afraid, because they feel bad for it, yet they are the least equipped to handle such a dog successfully.

That is what it sounded like (my friend's dog).  But what can be done?  Can "oh the dog has always been skittish/fearful" be used as an excuse and if so, is it even a legitimate excuse if it's fear is not only bein reinforced but also not being redirected?

One of my dogs is a bit skittish from both birth and background. What does help him is to give him things to do that he's not afraid of and is good at. For example he chases balls very well and feels confident. I taught him the command "pick it up" for his ball and he caught on quickly. Next I started asking him to pick up non-threatening type things like soft slippers and again he caught on quickly, then progressed to harder objects, then finally to things that might make noise like a newspaper wrapped in plastic.
 
He was very afraid of walking along the side walk of a busy street. So we started literally at 4:00 AM when there might only be two cars passing during a mile walk and every few days increased it by 15 minutes. I didn't use a lot of treats and rewards but might occasionally distract him with a lump of cheese if I saw a semi approaching.
 
He's never going to be the king of courage and would probably get diarahea in some really stressful circumstances (say putting a new roof on the house), but he developed enough tolerance to suit the environment he lives in.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

Since the dog seems to have come from a situation that wasn't ideal, it could be that she simply has a fearful or shy temperament made worse by lack of proper socialization and training. Newbies often pick the pup that seems nervous or afraid, because they feel bad for it, yet they are the least equipped to handle such a dog successfully.

That is what it sounded like (my friend's dog).  But what can be done?  Can "oh the dog has always been skittish/fearful" be used as an excuse and if so, is it even a legitimate excuse if it's fear is not only bein reinforced but also not being redirected?

Temperament is who they are genetically.  You will never make a shy dog the "king of courage" as Stacita puts it.  In early stages of development, you can modify this quite a bit with careful and frequent socialization.  It's just much harder to modify in the adult.  And, in some, you will never succeed, sorry to say.  I can't comment on a particular dog I've never seen, but IMO if you want to try to help, using classical conditioning with food is the only thing I'd suggest you use on someone else's dog.  If the owners want to pursue it, recommend that they see a behaviorist for help.

One of Shadow's breed traits is being aloof, sometimes skittish. Until he knows you. Sometimes, he may immediately latch onto someone. And he does remember people. Visiting our friend's son, who's girlfriend gave him to us, makes him a bounding puppy all over again.
 
The side-effect of the marker training I have been doing is that, in new social circumstances, he is still aloof and will back away from people but he looks to me for what to do, rather than deciding to assume a guarding role. This is because looking to me is always rewarding. Plus, I reward non-skittish behavior and don't make a big deal out of an undesired reaction. I simply increase the distance between us and whatever the stimulus is until he will accept a treat. Whereever I go is the reward. Eventually, to some degree, the gradual desensitization will be come classical.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

I'm curious as to whether anyone has had experience with extremely skittish dogs and owners who are "living in the past."  I've been thinking about this lately because a friend of mine told me about her dog who is terrified of everything.  For example, she said for nearly ten years her dad has gone out to the driveway every day to pick up the newspaper, and for nearly ten years every time he does this the dog reacts as if he's going to hit her with it.  He's never hit her with anything and she has no reason to fear newspapers.  This is just one example.

My own dog was 18 months old, high-strung, unsocialised, insecure, and mistrustful of humans when I got her from the shelter. As Cesar often mentions, these dogs can take the longest to turn around. There are no instant "fixes".

She was especially afraid of sudden noises, loud noises, water (in many forms), wind, men, and particularly - men holding objects in their hands. She was also highly intelligent, but in her highly fearful state her pupils would dialate to the extreme.

Dogs like this are often a combination of simply who they are, improper socialization, lack of socialization, mistreatment, and/or a lack of confidence and trust in the person they currently live with - regardless of who they lived with before, IMO.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

Basically, she made it sound like the dog fears everything and everyone.  I jokingly mentioned using a backpack to help the dog gain confidence and she said once she tried to just tie a bow on the dog's collar and it basically had an anxiety attack.  She said they believe this issues started very young.  When they got the dog, they went to a breeder and looked at all the puppies, but then saw one puppy chained up outside by itself (in winter in Michigan) and asked to see that puppy.  The breeder said they wouldn't want it, but they took it b/c it seemed so pitiful.  She also had some kind of scar on her leg that the breeder said was just from puppy play, but it looked more like the dog had been caught in some kind of trap at some point. 

It sounds like they picked the dog out of sympathy and probably tried to fix it with love and affection. This is a very common problem with owners who pick dogs like this. Love, affection and cookies alone will not help a dog like this get over their fear.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

I didn't want to get into a big debate since this was a casual conversation over drinks, but the friend did mention that in some ways they are unintentionally reinforcing this dog's behavior.  For example, she seems to be afraid of punishment or reprimand even though she's never been punished, so when she begs for food she just puts on paw lightly on someone.  They think it's so cute and really the most outgoing thing that the dog does, they reward her with a scrap or a treat.

Sad that they think it's "cute" and yes, they are reinforcing this dog's fear. Not because they are simply giving her a treat, but I doubt the dog is even to the point where it is receptive to a treat used appropriately.

I used some treats in a classical conditioning sense with my own dog, but not in an operant conditioning sense to deal with part of her insecurity. 

Although I do use voice marker training to "train" my dog, I do not use it when dealing with these issues directly. And neither does Cesar.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

I've been thinking about this because I personally have not met a dog that is skittish of everything for no reason.  At the shelter, we have dogs who are afraid of certain things or certain contexts (mostly dogs that are scared of men or duck away from certain movements because of abuse).  So I've been thinking about what I would do should I ever come across such a dog.  I disagree with Cesar on some things and some of his methods, but I really do think he has excellent points about how some owners get stuck living in the past and continuosly reinforce the bad (skittish) behaviors because they feel sorry for the animal. 

Yes, he really nails it. []

The dog will move on if the owners will help it do so. But remember why they picked this particular dog in the first place...out of pity and sympathy.

They have also put up with this behavior for a long time. I have met a few people who are more comfortable complaining about situations and acting helpless, rather than putting the needs of the dog first and putting forth some effort to actually help the dog.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

In all these episodes, he seems to do a great job of convincing the owners that the dog doesn't care about the past, it's only behaving this way because the owners put up with it and don't ask for a change.  However, in these episodes the dogs are usually afraid of one or two things, not really everything and everyone.

The episode from the first season featuring the pit/dalmation cross "Casper" was an extreme case (and my dog was just as bad when I got her).

Maybe espencer can find a link for you. []

The source of the continuing insecurity, mistrust, and fear is owner ignorance and how they continue to interact with the dog. This goes beyond just reinforcing the dog's "fear".

The dog does not feel safe in the owner's leadership and decision making so that it's confidence and security can grow.

It starts with the owners changing how they are interacting with the dog. But the dog will not change, unless the owners change, period.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

So, has anyone dealt with a dog that's just plain terrified of everything for no real reason?  Did you apply Cesar's reasoning and methods?  Did it work?

Yes, yes, and yes! She's doing great! []

It starts with everyone within the household agreeing to change how they are interacting with the dog along with understanding and applying everything which Cesar recommends to help the dog see all household members as leaders.

Suddenly looking at the dog or at the object of it's fear, talking in a high pitched voice, approaching the dog directly while staring at it, can all add to the problem. Ignoring the dog and carrying on a calm conversation with the other humans is helpful.

The daily leadership walk following Cesar's protocals is crucial.

The other area which is also difficult to do is running interference with every human this dog comes in contact with. "No touch, no talk no eye contact" is a must.

The owners must be seen as stable, trustworthy, confident, consistant, calm leaders who make good decisions and can keep the dog safe - in the dog's eyes, before anything else will be helpful, IMO. 

There are lots of details and the owners really should get someone who understands these principles to help them in person...if they are actually serious about helping this dog.

Here is a link to an organization which supports Cesar and his work:

[linkhttp://www.dogpro.org/]www.dogpro.org/[/link]

ETA: Although I don't use clickers and treats to shape insecurity, instability, distract, or counter condition the dog to establish trust in my leadership, others do.

To keep the CM area free of "training method" debates, you might also pose this question in the clicker section to get another point of view. []

The side-effect of the marker training I have been doing is that, in new social circumstances, he is still aloof and will back away from people but he looks to me for what to do, rather than deciding to assume a guarding role. This is because looking to me is always rewarding.

 
That's an excellent point.
 
Something else I did that was beneficial with Floyd, but probably wouldn't be with some dogs, was to give him a long daily massage during a non-training type situation such as after dinner. I think it helped to wire his brain that good sensations come from me.

Excellent post Angelique, thank you for providing so much clearly stated, excellent, relevant information! []

One reason Millan is so impressive on TV is that he enters into every interaction with a dog using the totality of this philosophy. Dogs feel safe with him, immediately, and so they are compliant, falling into ease. The show is very careful to state, however, that Millan has set a tone for the humans to acheive, and that they have long, hard work ahead of them to gain and maintain that kind of calm assertive demeanor in themselves.

Dogs peg your temperment in the first few moments they spend with you.

Since dogs live in the moment, tend the moment well!

ORIGINAL: Liesje
So, has anyone dealt with a dog that's just plain terrified of everything for no real reason? Did you apply Cesar's reasoning and methods? Did it work?

My dog had a yellow tag on her shelter kennel, signaling her as "difficult," due to being, I found out later, fear aggressive. Millan's methods: Yes! They are working. I lacked a lot of confidence when I first got my dog. Other methods I was trying were making me feel like I really needed to revisit Alanon! Millan's methodology, however, had me focus on my behaviors, on being the best stable ground for my dog that I can. Doing this raised my confidence in me, and, of course, my dog's confidence in me as well. As my dog feels more safe with me, she finds the world less scary.

TinaK had a great analogy about flight attendants that relates to this topic. In the case of a troubled airplane, a calm flight attendant will inspire less fear in the passengers than will an unsettled one.

The worst place for a fearful dog is with a directionless human who doesn't provide dependable boundaries and limits.

ORIGINAL: Stacita

Something else I did that was beneficial with Floyd, but probably wouldn't be with some dogs, was to give him a long daily massage during a non-training type situation such as after dinner. I think it helped to wire his brain that good sensations come from me.

 
CM also uses massage in certain situations. []
 
I've found massage (at the correct times) has been very helpful with several of my dogs. I think it also helps promote trust and a calm and relaxed state.
 
Appropriate tactile contact such as massage is a gift we can give our dogs. If hands have been used on a dog unfairly and abusively in the past, massage can help the dog associate pleasant experiences with hands, and us. IMO.
 
I used scratching my dog's rear with objects or having my BF do this, really helped her get over her fear of people (especially men) holding objects. However, the trust within the relationship and introducing this when the dog was already calm had to come first, in order her to be receptive to this.

Thanks, Angelique.  I guess my confusion stems from two different camps of people telling me two different things.  On one side, I have the "Cesar" camp who says that there is no reason for any dog to be terrified of everything in general and if it is, it's because the owners have done (or not done) something wrong.  Then on the other side are people telling me that "that's just how some dogs are" and like to avoid any sort of confrontation with the dog (help the dog avoid the things/situations that scare it).

So are there really cases where the owners have done everything they can to 1) give off an energy of confidence 2) never unintentionally reinforce the dog's fears and 3) gone to great lengths to build a trusting relationship and expose the dog to its fears in a calm, controlled manner and STILL the dog is honestly terrified of everything?

ORIGINAL: Liesje

Thanks, Angelique.  I guess my confusion stems from two different camps of people telling me two different things. 
 

 
No doubt! Just take it all in, study the different philosophies separately, and use independant thought and common sense over emotion to find out what rings true for you personally.
 

ORIGINAL: Liesje
 
On one side, I have the "Cesar" camp who says that there is no reason for any dog to be terrified of everything in general and if it is, it's because the owners have done (or not done) something wrong.  Then on the other side are people telling me that "that's just how some dogs are" and like to avoid any sort of confrontation with the dog (help the dog avoid the things/situations that scare it).
 

 
Avoiding the issue will not help resolve the issue in the real world. You just have to not exceed what you ask of that particular dog in a given moment and be able to handle a dog that may temporarily "flip-out", IMO.
 

ORIGINAL: Liesje

So are there really cases where the owners have done everything they can to 1) give off an energy of confidence 2) never unintentionally reinforce the dog's fears and 3) gone to great lengths to build a trusting relationship and expose the dog to its fears in a calm, controlled manner and STILL the dog is honestly terrified of everything?

 
High-strung, ultra-submissive, unsocialised, improperly socialised, yet otherwise "normal" and healthy dogs just require a bit more effort and skill from someone who knows what they are doing.
 
The rest is mostly a human based issue. Most dogs are born normal and were messed up along the way by a human being. []