Mastering the dominance ritual

I think that to transmit a leadership attitude to a dog also implies that the human have a good grasp of canine language.  I'm not convinced that people, in general, have enough of an understanding of what dogs are trying to tell them.  If you misinterpret their language, you cannot be accurate in your responses to them.  

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl
I tried to message you, but your PM box if full!

Sorry, I didn't notice. I'll fix it so if you still have questions you can ask them there. I'm taking a break from the main board for a bit. You can see why.[]

Still can't deliver a message to you. Cheers, hope you're enjoying your holiday [8D].

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I think that to transmit a leadership attitude to a dog also implies that the human have a good grasp of canine language.....

Boy, isn't that the truth!  And there are so many "nuances" CM talks about, like the "positive energy" discussed above.  I remember one episode where CM discussed the difference between petting the head of the dog and rubbing his chin.  Sheeesh!  How's an ordinary guy like me supposed to remember all that stuff? [&:]

ORIGINAL: tdlabrie

Boy, isn't that the truth!  And there are so many "nuances" CM talks about, like the "positive energy" discussed above.  I remember one episode where CM discussed the difference between petting the head of the dog and rubbing his chin.  Sheeesh!  How's an ordinary guy like me supposed to remember all that stuff? [&:]

 
You just did []

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: tdlabrie

Boy, isn't that the truth!  And there are so many "nuances" CM talks about, like the "positive energy" discussed above.  I remember one episode where CM discussed the difference between petting the head of the dog and rubbing his chin.  Sheeesh!  How's an ordinary guy like me supposed to remember all that stuff? [&:]

You just did []

Nope!  I remember he discussed there was a difference, but I sure can't remember what the difference was!  []  Lucky for Max I pat his head and stroke his chin all the time.  Spoiled boy!

I haven't read through all the posts. 

I just wanted to mention that when I first rescued my Rottweiler I addressed her offensive behaviors with dominance type techniques and alpha rolls.  When you have a truly offensive dominant dog these techniques can come back to bite you in the bottom.

With Athena she shut down at first and her reactions seemed to be be less and I "thought" it was working.  What I didn't realize is I was suppressing the offensive behavior and turned her into a sneaky offensive dog. 

It took a lot of positive training to turn her around and mold her into the wonderful dog she is now. 

What worked for me was learning about breed specific motor patterns and enhanced drives.  The dominance techniques are not going to help you when your trying to suppress a motor pattern that is hard wired into the dog.

Just a little advise which I thought I'd share.   

ORIGINAL: Cally01

I haven't read through all the posts. 

I just wanted to mention that when I first rescued my Rottweiler I addressed her offensive behaviors with dominance type techniques and alpha rolls.  When you have a truly offensive dominant dog these techniques can come back to bite you in the bottom.

With Athena she shut down at first and her reactions seemed to be be less and I "thought" it was working.  What I didn't realize is I was suppressing the offensive behavior and turned her into a sneaky offensive dog. 

It took a lot of positive training to turn her around and mold her into the wonderful dog she is now. 

What worked for me was learning about breed specific motor patterns and enhanced drives.  The dominance techniques are not going to help you when your trying to suppress a motor pattern that is hard wired into the dog.

Just a little advise which I thought I'd share.   

Yours is one of the most salient posts I've seen on any section of the forum.  It really is critical to understand the characteristics that come "hard-wired".

ORIGINAL: Cally01

The dominance techniques are not going to help you when your trying to suppress a motor pattern that is hard wired into the dog.

And (you forgot to add) when you dont know what you are doing []

What is a "breed specific motor pattern"? Just as an example? [8|]

espencer, the dominance techniques have been around for a long long time...CM didn't invent them.  People have used them for many years... It was a fad years ago as well. 

TinaK, understanding breed specific motor patterns is very important (IMO) when training a specific breed.  Pick up the book "Dogs" by Raymond Coppinger and Lorna Coppinger to learn more about them.  A trainer who doesn't know about motor patterns or breed specific enhanced motor patterns or hard wired drives would be a red flag to walk away from.

For example when my Rottie saw a small dog (prey object) and I tried to suppress her actions with an alpha roll it did not stop those motor patterns from functioning.  What a person learns with reactive dogs is to use the dogs natural drives to redirect them...this way the dog can still fulfill the internal  leasure of doing what comes natural and you as the owner have succeeded in molding the dogs drives into behaviors that please you.

Take for example having a border collie and having the dog around sheep or another prey object.  Try suppressing that herding instinct by rolling the border collie...the dog hasn't learned anything by the owner rolling it...they will just learn another way to eye stalk and chase without their owner catching them.  The drive and urge to fulfill motor patterns is much stronger than any punishment, food reward you could give.

spiritdogs can explain it to you better than I can.[] 

ORIGINAL: Cally01

I haven't read through all the posts.  
  

I think it might be a good idea if you did. []

This thread was accidentally posted with "alpha roll" in it's title. Through the course of the discussion, this thread has been renamed both by Ixas_girl and by Kelly (Personal Champ).

Read the entire thread and you will see why.

Maybe Kelly can change the header on the main directory to the forum too, so there will be less confusion in regards to this term. []

ORIGINAL: Cally01

espencer, the dominance techniques have been around for a long long time...CM didn't invent them.  People have used them for many years... It was a fad years ago as well.

Thank you, i was aware of that already [], nobody in this forum has ever say that he did

ORIGINAL: Cally01

For example when my Rottie saw a small dog (prey object) and I tried to suppress her actions with an alpha roll it did not stop those motor patterns from functioning.  What a person learns with reactive dogs is to use the dogs natural drives to redirect them...this way the dog can still fulfill the internal  leasure of doing what comes natural and you as the owner have succeeded in molding the dogs drives into behaviors that please you.

Take for example having a border collie and having the dog around sheep or another prey object.  Try suppressing that herding instinct by rolling the border collie...the dog hasn't learned anything by the owner rolling it...they will just learn another way to eye stalk and chase without their owner catching them.  The drive and urge to fulfill motor patterns is much stronger than any punishment, food reward you could give.

Thank you, you just proved me right when i said "And (you forgot to add) when you dont know what you are doing". No wonder why this "dominance techniques" (as you call them) didnt work for you. If you really know what you are doing then you know that breed needs should never be supressed, even less with an "alpha roll"

At least you are right with the part of redirecting those needs with any other activity that can fufill that need, CM never supress breed needs, he takes dogs to a herding camp to excersice dogs of that breed, he advices owners to buy a little car for their husky to pull and fufill that need, etc.

I dont know why you thought in the past that you should supress a breed need the way you did it, CM (or any of us here) would advice you to do that ever, it was clearly a lack of understanding of behavioral techniques as well as how, when or even if you should apply them

OK you guys, this is the second time today that I've been called to this thread.  Nope, not my area to moderate, but know this.  One person here has already received an email from me today that they apparently chose to disregard.  If I get called back here AGAIN today, I'm picking up the phone and calling a couple people who DO have the power to edit this thread and who can dole out suspensions that are majorly overdo.
 
Understand this.  Just because this is the CM section that does NOT mean that anyone gets to act like a jerk, attack others or in general be a butthead.  This section is still part of the forum and ALL forum rules apply here.
 
If you can't be nice, then leave.

ORIGINAL: Angelique

Maybe Kelly can change the header on the main directory to the forum too, so there will be less confusion in regards to this term. []

Angelique, you can change that when post by changing the "Subject".   See it changed, is that what you want?

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: Angelique

Maybe Kelly can change the header on the main directory to the forum too, so there will be less confusion in regards to this term. []

Angelique, you can change that when post by changing the "Subject".   See it changed, is that what you want?

 
It's okay. Looks like someone fixed it. Thank you "someone"! []