Mastering the dominance ritual

    • Gold Top Dog

    Mastering the dominance ritual

    Caution: I posted this in the CM section to get good advice on how to do this properly. If you want to engage in an ideological debate on alpha rolls in general, please start another thread elsewhere! Thank you in advance for your respectfulness.

    I've been doing counter-conditioning/desensitising with treats and praise, I've been making like a tree, I've been adopting an "I'm in charge" attitude, Ixa's reactivity's been getting *better*. I've been doing NILIF, clicker training, massage and lots of exercise. For the most part, I have a good relationship with my dog, except this neurotic behavior, that I truly believe I've been feeding.

    Yesterday, as I was backing away from a white poodle that inspired Ixa to flip like a salmon at the end of the leash I said, "nope," and I decided to stop "feeding" this problem.

    I put Ixa in a down and rolled her on her side and held her there for a minute or so till she calmed down a little bit. She was surprised, I felt conflicted. But afterwards, I had about 15 minutes of the most perfect, beautiful, peaceful, dare I say divine, masterful walk I've ever experienced. We moved as one, she as mine. In a harmony of my making.

    It felt much less like "manhandling" than I expected it to. In fact, it felt kinder and gentler than all the tugging of her I'd been doing to "move her to a comfortable distance" when she became agitated. It felt like the way you'd restrain someone in seizure so they wouldn't hurt themselves. I had my hands directly on her, and she was in a safe place below my body. Since I need her to trust me to be the one who handles the outside world, it felt like a more appropriate image to be trustful of.

    I'd like to try this, or something similar, again, next time she lunges at another dog, which I'm sure she will since I've been *letting her* do it for 3 months now.

    For those of you who do use alpha rolls in appropriate contexts, is this an appropriate context? Should I be doing a shoulder/neck poke instead? Is there a downside to doing this (doing this incorrectly) that you'd like to warn me about? Please help me understand how to do this successfully, so that she gets the full benefits of the message, and so I don't invite her to bite me. I feel confident to try this again with her, and the 2 trainers I have relationships with don't do this kind of behavior, so I'm looking to you folks for advice with this. I'm guessing if I do it right, I'll probably only have to do it a few more times.

    I assume that the more I get my body over hers, the less I will have to use my hands to "push" her to the ground?

    Where should I be holding her once she's on her side? Side of the face? Chest? Throat?

    Do I look at her, look her in the eye when I'm doing this? Should I say nothing?

    What signs of submission should I be looking for before I let her up?
    I assume I don't give her affection after letting her up, but rather continue on with business as usual?

    How do you do it? What are you willing to share to help me?

    *Note: I am still going to continue with the counter-conditioning, nilif and all the other stuff I do, I don't consider this a "replacement" or a fix-all for this problem, simply another tool.

    Edited to change subject heading
    • Gold Top Dog
    Reminder: Caution: I posted this in the CM section to get good advice on how to do this properly. If you want to engage in an ideological debate on alpha rolls in general, please start another thread elsewhere! Thank you in advance for your respectfulness.

    It seems that to "bring back" your dog to a calm state there was not other way since she was "jumping like a salmon", alpha rolling for me is like grabbing a friend, give him a hug and take him out of the situation that is making him mad
     
    Now maybe you should work a little bit more on avoiding the dog to get all the way to the highest level of aggresion, maybe a quick leash correction at the moment she turs her head to the other dog, it seems your timing with those corrections is a little bit off, also it seems that you are already nervous about what is going to happen im the street and that helps your dog to be "alert" too, check on that also [;)]
     
    Where should I be holding her once she's on her side? Side of the face? Chest? Throat?: side of the neck, again your fingers on "bite" position, your thumb right below the jaw to avoid the dog to bite you in case something went wrong, like if you were trying to find her pulse, look at her, you dont have to look at her eyes necessarily, but be confident on what you are doing, if not that would back fire, the dog will know dont know what you are doing and bite you
     
    You just wait for her to laid down on the floor completly, you can feel it on your hands when she is not fighting anymore and just continue with the usual business like if nothing happened after that
    • Gold Top Dog
    Caution: I posted this in the CM section to get good advice on how to do this properly. If you want to engage in an ideological debate on alpha rolls in general, please start another thread elsewhere! Thank you in advance for your respectfulness.

     
     
    I am glad you posted that, let's see how long the peace will last, eh?[;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    I love it. Ok, so I've about a second here, and hpoe fully this will not turn into a debate. I don't really call what I do a "alpha roll" because I remember what those use to look like. I only use these in cases where aggression is be shown...at that moment. I grab the dog by the collar just behind the head, I use finger only pressure to place the butt in a sit, I then move them quickly off balance so it's easier to place them on their side...not their back, using only only my finger tips on the neck, I keep only enough preassure to keep them from coming up even one hair. First they submit, however that's not the two most important parts. The second most most important part is...you wait until they become...calm, and you can only do this if...your calm. No fustration...no anger...period. How do you know when their calm? When you move your fingers lightly away, and they just lay there for a moment.

    Now!!! I'm not telling ANYONE to do...or try this, I'm answering the question asked, and explaining how *I* "alpha roll" (using the OP's def) a dog.

    Gotta.[sm=dance.gif]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: snownose

    Caution: I posted this in the CM section to get good advice on how to do this properly. If you want to engage in an ideological debate on alpha rolls in general, please start another thread elsewhere! Thank you in advance for your respectfulness.



    I am glad you posted that, let's see how long the peace will last, eh?[;)]


    Well I said my piece, and will not join in on any debate that follows.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Even proponents of the alpha roll would probably encourage you to seek guidance from a professional that you can interact with face to face.  A hodgepodge of advice on a dog forum sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.  Also keep a close eye not only on what this adds to your relationship with your dog, but also what it takes away.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Thanks for your input, thus far, folks. I just have one moment to check in quickly right now since I'm having computer problems this morining. I'll be reading and probably have a few questions later, but I wanted to thank you so much for taking my question seriously and sharing your knowledge with me. Thanks for both the descriptive info and cautionary info.

    Fellow idoggers, please don't give energy to a negative turn for this thread, with the likes of popcorn eating and martini drinking spectatorship.

    If this thread gets messy, I'll be stuck with simply trying this on my own. Please leave room for those people who are willing to advise me on this. I'm a smart cookie, and smarter yet with information in my pocket. I'm not gonna f*** up my dog. Please be kind and give us room to work here.

    If you know of another discussion list where you think I would get more/better info, please feel free to let me know what that is, here or in PM.

    If you would like to complain about this thread, please PM me. I'll gladly discuss it with you.

    Thanks again for your consideration.
    • Gold Top Dog
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    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

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    Wow i didnt know that technique, do you use it? shame on you, by the way:

    ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

    Caution: I posted this in the CM section to get good advice on how to do this properly. If you want to engage in an ideological debate on alpha rolls in general, please start another thread elsewhere! Thank you in advance for your respectfulness.

    • Gold Top Dog
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    Yep, that is a totally new method to me.........who invented that?
    • Gold Top Dog
    We have an extremely polite, respectful OP in this thread - can we please honor their request, instead of ruining the good nature of yet another thread?
     
    Keep in on topic or go elsewhere.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Thank you.

    I'm also grateful for the helpful PM messages I'm receiving. It was pointed out to me that Millan uses the strategy and term "dominance ritual", so I'm renaming this thread to be more accurate.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Hehe. Beat you to it, Ixas!
     
    Carry on...
    • Gold Top Dog

    ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

    Thank you.

    I'm also grateful for the helpful PM messages I'm receiving. It was pointed out to me that Millan uses the strategy and term "dominance ritual", so I'm renaming this thread to be more accurate.

    Aha! A "ritual", sounds like the thread is not limited to an alpha roll then? [8D]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: espencer

    look at her, you dont have to look at her eyes necessarily,

     
    I'd suggest looking at her eyes for any signs of fear, confusion and/or pain.