Mastering the dominance ritual

ORIGINAL: silverserpher

Even proponents of the alpha roll would probably encourage you to seek guidance from a professional that you can interact with face to face.  A hodgepodge of advice on a dog forum sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.  Also keep a close eye not only on what this adds to your relationship with your dog, but also what it takes away.

Before anyone gets any red font ready, I would like to point out that I am neutral to the alpha roll or dominance ritual or whatever it is called.  However, I do have a dog that has had very similar issues as the OP's dog.

If I were to try this with Sally, I would do just as silverserpher has suggested and have a real live trainer *show* me how to do this.  I am not saying that the people responding to this thread are not *real* trainers, but I do think that there is a difference in something being described over the internet and being done hands on in real life. 

For me, it would not be a safety issue, because I have 200% faith that Sally would not try to bite me.  However, I am a very visual person and would want someone who has actually used this procedure successfully to show me hands on and read Sally's body language, etc before, during, and after the "ritual" to be sure that she is actually getting from it what she needs to for it to be effective.

Good points and nothing inflammatory in your post Silly Sally. []

Noone wants to see anyone get hurt or a dog accidentally harmed. Hands-on, eyes-on instruction from a professional is always recommended in these situations.

Ixas Girl,

When discussing this topic, there are areas I usually address which should be kept in mind, and some areas of caution if this done by someone who is not a very experienced dog handler or professional.

* As was mentioned, this is done by someone experienced, who is in a calm state. There should be no fear, anger, or frustration in you. This is not an "I'm gonna show you who's boss!!!" interaction.

* If done by someone inexperienced who is seen by the dog as a subordinant, the dog may see this as a challenge and bite (discipline) you.

* If done wrong, an inexperienced person could accidentally injure their dog and cause mistrust.

* The dog should never view you as unpredictable or unstable during this interaction, and the dog should never feel "attacked" by the person using this manuver.

* The dog could be in a fearful state and give you a fear bite, and/or their trust in you could also be damaged.

* The dog may already be diffused and giving you submissive signals, so you do not need to do this at all. Think hard, and do not over-use this technique when something with less "intensity" may work just fine.

Awsomedog's description is spot-on, IMO.

Cesar uses this "ritual" to diffuse an out of control dog in order to get them to calm down, to get a dominant dog to submit to him (as in the case with Jombee the Jindo in one episode), and also in a "positioning" sense with a dog which has attacked another dog or when two dogs have been fighting each other, from what I've seen on the show.

I hope this post is helpful to you. []

Once again, this should not be attempted without the help of an experienced rofessional who really knows what they are doing. []

The reason Cesar does not call this "Alpha Rolling” is because..     A true alpha roll is an aggressive measure, dogs and wolves do not do this routinely - only in very specific instances - that usually involve aggression of some kind. Routinely alpha rolling your dog only invites mistrust and confusion at best, at worst - aggression. Slowly rolling a dog on his back and holding him there is NOT an alpha roll. It can be considered a training exercise, similar to a long down.

I think this is a good point.  I was wondering if the dog went into the "down" easily and on her own?

The OP said... I put Ixa in a down and rolled her on her side and held her there for a minute or so till she calmed down a little bit.

I think the fact that she went into a down says much.  Most won't (voluntarily) in that situation due to it being a very vulnerable position.

* The dog may already be diffused and giving you submissive signals, so you do not need to do this at all. Think hard, and do not over-use this technique when something with less "intensity" may work just fine.

I am new to this forum, but in my experience, such a manuever should only be used if ...
1.) A person has been trained properly;
2.) The dog deserves the MAXIMUM consequence for the highest level of aggressive behavior.

It was difficult to discern from the OP whether or not Ixa hit that level of behavior, but ultimately, that's for the owner to decide, not me. I believe CM would indicate that something short of the highest level of agressive behavior should be addressed with sound and/or touch in order to refocus the dog, who may have begun fixating and becoming aggitated.

It's obvious you love Ixa very much. Good luck with your efforts.

espencer, Awesomedog, silverserpher, sillysally, Angelique, luvmyswissy,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful, cautionary, advisory, descriptive, and dignified responses. The descriptions given about calmness, lack of force, fingertip pressure, hugging a friend … confirms my experience regarding the gentleness and benevolence of this move. In fact, that was the surprising part of the gesture for me: that it was so calm, peaceful; a loving act of containment. A truly believable "you're ok, I got you.”

Yes, I am struggling with the language, the clarifications are really helpful J

Awesomedog: awesome description. Thanks for underscoring the lightness of touch, quickness and sureness of gesture, and the peace of mind that accompany it.

Angelique: Thanks for describing the varieties of psychological ground upon which to consider all this. My BF has written to Ms. McConnell to seek a reference for a behaviorist here in LA. I've actually worked with 3 trainers so far, one who's knowledge I must not so humbly say I've surpassed in my 3 short months of praxis. I dared to ask you all for help, here, because I have found the best and most stable knowledge pool amongst these bits and bytes. Even while I'm h***bent on learning how to be the respected leader in this house, I admire you for the great care you take in establishing the field of responsibility.

To those of you who PM'ed: Though I am responding to you privately, I wanted to acknowledge and appreciate, here, your concern for the wellbeing of all dogs and all manner of their care, while respecting the intent of this thread.

Now, how does one follow up a dominance ritual? Simply stand up and continue jogging? Go someplace quiet and sit for a minute?

Tina, JM, Angelique, Mahoolihan (Mahoolihan, welcome to the forum),

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl
For those of you who do use alpha rolls in appropriate contexts, is this an appropriate context? Should I be doing a shoulder/neck poke instead?

Yes, I wanted to understand "How and when to lay my dog down properly". Secondly, I'd like feedback as to whether laying my dog down is the correct response, or if perhaps a neck poke (soft bite), or other related communication (like a finger point or "tccht”, for example) would be more appropriate for this scenario.

In what instance would you use the dominance ritual, the soft bite, or other related correction?

Yesterday: Ixa was in a down, because as I dragged her further from the other dog, I also lowered my hand towards the ground to keep her from flipping, so that when we came to a stop, she was already down, but not subdued. The roll to her side from there was quite calm and effortless physically, but emotionally I was second-guessing myself.

The other dog entered the track behind us as we were jogging, so we had speeded up, and were around 15' away when Ixa suddenly started flipping and snarling. She usually exhibits arousal signs I can respond to, but this time she went from 0-60 in one second. I was afraid she'd break the equipment, and get free.

Usually 15' would be more than far enough. When Ixa exhibits arousal signs, I move her away from the problem, giving her "unh-unh”s if she makes noise or fidgets. Then I'll have her sit, and I'll do shake's or watch me's to get focus. I incrementally move her closer, asking for downs, which are the real test of her calmness, I had already been doing that yesterday morning with the other dogs we passed, except for the few that I just gave wide berth to, and kept moving. I'm doing all this with a flat collar.

And, that's the thing. Sometimes I need to keep moving! Sometimes I need to finish my jog. Sometimes I can't cross the street to avoid the fenced huskies, because there's a bunch of yellow labs there already, and a shepherd behind us. Sometimes I can't drive off to the mountains to avoid all these dogs. I need her to just get with me, chill, and be on my walk. I need her to trust that I've got it under control. Retreating from other dogs and doing spontaneous obedience/treat/praise sessions is making her recover time faster, but it isn't communicating my trustworthyness to her.

In the house, Ixa sits 2” away from her food in a perfect down stay until I release her. Outside the house, I'm her little sister! (I had a revelatory walk after laying Ixa on her side, and again today at the same park, and have much to say about that, but I'll save it for another thread.)

I'd be happy to do something else when Ixa's flipping and snarling, but all the calming books just tell you to "move away from the big scary thing” and since "moving” 45 pounds of stormy muscle means something like dragging, it just seemed that laying her down to calm her was less violent. I'm also interested in Millan's objection to always moving the dog away from the source of tension, rather than facing the fear to prove it won't hurt them.

Some back story: I am supplying much love, friendship and nurturing with Ixa (as she is to me). I am a good sister and mom to her; now I'm working on being a good proverbial "dad". In the Millan vocabulary, I am missing the discipline part of the 3-part mantra that includes exercise and affection, even though we're consistent with obedience training and NILIF.

While Ixa is fearful, she's also happy to fill in any vacuums in leadership. She responds with deep respect towards masterful people, and with a bit of disdain towards the uncertain. She's a little confused sometimes as to where I fit in this range. This is what I wish to correct. This is why I'm working on how to step in and step up.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

Now, how does one follow up a dominance ritual? Simply stand up and continue jogging? Go someplace quiet and sit for a minute?

Yes. As CM points out in both his book and TV show, dogs do live in the moment. They carry so much less "baggage" and no projecting into the future, as humans do.

Simply and calmly move on...with your eyes on the horizon and confidence in your step. []

Late...tired...more to come.

I think...if you could somehow convey this attitude in stance. I need her to just get with me, chill, and be on my walk. ..then maybe she will get the message.  Maybe you need to internalize it.  Once it is internalized, then it will show in your body language.  Which the dog will pick up.

 Easier said than done, eh?

Truthfully, it doesn't sound as if she is a complete basket case, as it sounds as if she can be in close proximity (somewhat) of dogs.  So I think you are almost there.

I understand where you are coming from here.  “moving” 45 pounds of stormy muscle means something like dragging, it just seemed that laying her down to calm her was less violent.  And you very well could be right.  Pulling on a dog while it is lunging (which is pretty much unavoidable) can be seen as violent.  There is a possibility the dog 'feels' it is violent. It has to be painful.

I don't know sweets, what to tell you.  Just keep plugging on until you find what works for you and your dog.  I just want to offer my support in what you are trying to accomplish.

Ixas Girl,

One other thing to keep in mind...as humans, there is a tendency in humans to want to "make-up" or become "equals" with the dog after an intense moment. I do believe that this (primate gesture) can confuse a dog.

Doing this in our attempts to make everything an "equal and fair" partnership with our dogs, does them a disservice and is a projection of human values and feelings, IMO. 

This can come across to the dog as a flip-flopping in us between acting like a leader one minute, and a follower the next.

I read once that "there is no equality in a dog's mind". I believe this to be true, and worth keeping in mind when honoring a dog, as a dog. []

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog
Late...tired...more to come.

I tried to message you, but your PM box if full!

Yes, I wanted to understand "How and when to lay my dog down properly". Secondly, I'd like feedback as to whether laying my dog down is the correct response, or if perhaps a neck poke (soft bite), or other related communication (like a finger point or “tccht”, for example) would be more appropriate for this scenario.

Are you asking how you should react when she just saw another dog? Or when she is reacting/ flipping like salmon already? It's important piece of information I think, because timing is everything. I have never seen Millan alpha roll a dog when it was *in the midst* of twisting and flipping. I haven't seen him do that when the dog just noticed a threat either (that's a moment for redirection). It's always been seconds, or however long after, when there is a pause after the "conflict"... the moment when the dog snaps out of the "fit".
It's interesting how you changed the title from the "alpha roll" to "alpha ritual", and, that's true enough. To my mind, alpha roll is not a 'method' to correct behavior - it's a ritual. A ritual isn't meant to resolve anything.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl
Yes, I wanted to understand "How and when to lay my dog down properly". Secondly, I'd like feedback as to whether laying my dog down is the correct response, or if perhaps a neck poke (soft bite), or other related communication (like a finger point or "tccht”, for example) would be more appropriate for this scenario.

Once the dog is flipping like a salmon!

And, then, also:

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl
In what instance would you use the dominance ritual, the soft bite, or other related correction?

In order to "master the dominance ritual":
In addition to learning it's proper physical form, as described by Awsomedog, I need to understand when "The dog deserves the MAXIMUM consequence for the highest level of aggressive behavior", to quote Mahoolihan.

she fixes her gaze on another dog and licks her lips, I could ______________ (keep walking confidently? "tccht"?)

she's fixated on another dog, is breathing hard and presses into the leash a little, I could _____________ ("tccht"/light leash pop?)

she's fixated her gaze on another dog, she's barking and pulling hard on the leash, I could ____________ (soft bite?)

she's too psycho to be fixated on anything, she's flipping like a salmon, and snarling: __________ (down her?)

she breaks the equipment and runs over and nips a little fluffy dog in the butt (no broken skin): ___________ (dominance ritual?)

She gets engaged in a full on dog fight, after fight is stopped: ___________ (?????)

Some trainers have said to let her bark and bounce, so long as it's friendly and playful, but correct if it's aggressive or hard.
Some protocols have me ignoring, and turning around and avoid the stimulus.

I want the "Cesareenie" (to use Angelique's term) version! Understanding, of course, that these corrections are not how we "train a dog", but are rituals/communiques to correct transgressions of the social rules we have established for our dogs as their pack leader.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

In order to "master the dominance ritual":
In addition to learning it's proper physical form, as described by Awsomedog, I need to understand when "The dog deserves the MAXIMUM consequence for the highest level of aggressive behavior", to quote Mahoolihan.

For me, "putting a dog on the ground" would be used:

1) If the dog was completely out of control (see: Flipping like a salmon []) in order to get the dog to calm down.

In the moment of aggression against another dog, person, or the handler to prevent injury to another living being, or to diffuse a direct or redirected bite (in the heat of the moment) upon the handler.

The two previous statements are more about dealing with an escalated, "red zone" frame of mind so that the dog cannot harm itself or others until the "frame of mind" passes and the dog calms down and returns to reality. For me, this is not specifically done to deliberately establish "dominance" with the dog, but it does have that effect if it is done correctly by an experienced rofessional who knows what they are doing.

2) In terms of how Cesar uses it for maximum consequence:

This is the specific "ritual" part, IMO.

This is done to discipline the dog (via the Pack Leader) and put them in the subordinant position for a maximum transgression to make the lesson clear.

I personally don't use this "ritual" portion of this manuver much. But, I don't deal with large packs of dogs.

3) In the case of Jombee the Jindo, I've also seen Cesar get the dog to submit to both him and the Jindo's owner because the dog's dominant behavior was out of control and the dog simply refused to be placed on it's side. So, I see this used a bit differently than 1 and/or 2.

For the most part, I rarely use this manuver. Mostly for situation 1. Pretty much never in situation 2. And on rare occasions for situation 3.

(But this is just me, and although I do deal with some aggressive dogs, I do not specialize in them. I'm sure Awsomedog will see this thread and clear his box out so you can PM him. This is his area of expertise. [])

ORIGINAL: Ixas_Girl

she fixes her gaze on another dog and licks her lips, I could ______________ (keep walking confidently? "tccht"?)

she's fixated on another dog, is breathing hard and presses into the leash a little, I could _____________ ("tccht"/light leash pop?)

she's fixated her gaze on another dog, she's barking and pulling hard on the leash, I could ____________ (soft bite?)

For the above I would use a bump (or intermitant bumping) of the leash or a op to redirect, and keep moving. Besides a verbal "hey", I do not do much interaction with the dog, just calmly keep moving and do not focus on the object your dog is targeting.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_Girl

she's too psycho to be fixated on anything, she's flipping like a salmon, and snarling: __________ (down her?)

The dog has already escalated. See situation 1. Hands-on, eyes-on professional help would be my suggestion. []
 

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

she breaks the equipment and runs over and nips a little fluffy dog in the butt (no broken skin): ___________ (dominance ritual?)

Prevention, so this does not happen. Just calmly get control of your dog and move on from the moment.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_Girl

She gets engaged in a full on dog fight, after fight is stopped: ___________ (?????)

Prevention again. In the heat of the moment do what it takes to break up the fight, and calmly move on from the moment.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_Girl

Some trainers have said to let her bark and bounce, so long as it's friendly and playful, but correct if it's aggressive or hard.

Poop! [] 

This puts you in the reactionary/follower position. I see no useful reason to allow this behavior. It is not helpful in having a "calm/submissive" dog who is paying attention to her leader. This can also provoke other dogs and put you both in danger.

It can take a split second for things to escalate, and once they do, the situation can get out of control quickly.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_Girl

Some protocols have me ignoring, and turning around and avoid the stimulus.

I do not recommend avoiding if you feel confident you can handle your dog. But, I do recommend to keep on moving, focusing on the walk, and ignoring.

If you leave or change your demeanor when another dog is sighted, your dog may relate this as a signal of danger regarding the other dog and not understand that you are leaving because of what they (your dog) might do. IMO

ORIGINAL: Ixas_Girl

I want the "Cesareenie" (to use Angelique's term) version! Understanding, of course, that these corrections are not how we "train a dog", but are rituals/communiques to correct transgressions of the social rules we have established for our dogs as their pack leader.

Pack order is mostly established through our attitude, demeanor, body language, direction of activities, decision making, and becoming beings of action (not of reaction to what the dog is doing).

Establish your relationship in all areas, and you may not need to use the "dominance ritual" at all.

We are the primary tool which shapes our dogs, and it starts with us. Personally, as a "Cesareenie", this is where I would start. []