Leash Aggression

[color=#000000]Links for the books above:
 
Parsons, Emma[/color][font=verdana][size=3], Click to Calm - Healing the Aggressive Dog, 12/2004
[linkhttp://tinyurl.com/248pnm]http://tinyurl.com/248pnm[/link]
 
McConnell, Patricia, Feisty Fido: [font="times new roman"][size=2][font=verdana][size=3]Help For the Leash Aggressive Dog[/size][/font][/font], 6/2003
[linkhttp://tinyurl.com/5vhqz]http://tinyurl.com/5vhqz[/link]
 
Brown, Ali[font=verdana][size=3], Scaredy Dog! Understanding and Rehabilitating Your Reactive Dog, 5/2004
[linkhttp://tinyurl.com/437q3]http://tinyurl.com/437q3[/link]
 
Wood, Deborah[font=verdana][size=3], Help for Your Shy Dog: Turning Your Terrified Dog into a Terrific Pet, 6/1999
[linkhttp://tinyurl.com/ywccqy]http://tinyurl.com/ywccqy[/link][/size][/font]
 
McConnell, Patricia, The Cautious Canine: Helping Your Dog Overcome Its Fears[font=verdana][size=3], 6/1998 [/size][/font]
[linkhttp://tinyurl.com/6jvub]http://tinyurl.com/6jvub[/link]
 
Note:  The Tinyurl links are to Amazon.com and I created them myself.[/size][/font][/size][/size][/font]

[color=#000000]HANDLING ON LEASH AGGRESSION
by Suzanne Clothier [/color]
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/onldagg.html

I have such a dog and read  the books below.
Feisty Fido by Patricia McConnell
Scaredy Dog by Ali Brown
The Cautious Canine by Patricia McConnell

I have had great success recently with this.  I think a lot of it has come from working at a distance and also minimizing his abilities to be reactive (meaning we don't walk on straight trails where we can't get WAY off the trail).  I have used a clicker to mark the relaxed behavior or even the interested but not growling/lunging stuff.  I give huge rewards if I notice his interest, call his name and he looks at me.  All three of these books have really helped in my understanding of how to go about changing this.

I don't think we're at a point where we could walk a straight path and pass another dog, though I can get his attention in agility class and keep him focused on me instead of on the other dogs, which is awesome. 

And yes, off leash he is fine.  He has no interest in playing with strange dogs, but he doesn't "go after them".  It does work but it's taken months to get to this point.  But well worth it.  Especially since his initial training was yank and crank and it only seemed to make it worse. 

I've done a fair bit of calming with my girl, since I got her in January. The books above were great in terms of developing a nurturing rapport with my dog. They helped me learn to spot her distress early, before she acted out.

Now that we're a more confident and less fearful dog/human, I'm transitioning into a no nonsense "eh-eh" and just keep walking routine. I felt that I'd gotten to a point in which the nurturing was slowing our progress down, that stopping 20 feet from an oncoming dog to sit and calm was building a dysfunctional relationship.

I need for me and my dog to believe that leash walking past other dogs is just a normal, boring, no big whoop thing, not a special ritual that involves treats and pets. So, I decided we were ready to stop saying "we're ok, no one's gonna get us" and switch to "La la la, nothing special here, we're just walking along, la la la!" [] It's working great!

Since leash aggression has so much to do with the energy we, the owners, send down the leash, I'm pretty sure that much of the calming work we did was for my benefit [8D]. So, if the need arises to go back and do more calming, we know how and can do that []

I think one of the most important thing with leash agressive and reactive dogs is for owners to understand just how much impact their body language and responses have to do with the dog's behavior.  This is something I've really had to work on.  I've loved dogs my entire life, but have always been somewhat fearful and hesistant to assert myself with larger dogs.  I was bit by a rottie as a kid, but I don't remember this so my only explanation is that I'm just a pretty cautious person as a whole and don't commit to things I don't think I can do perfectly.  I just started watching Cesar Millan and I know it's a hot topic so I'm not saying I'm in love with him or agree with all of his methods BUT the show has really helped me be more in tune with my body language when I'm with the dogs.  This is incredibly important to me since we get a lot of leash agression at the shelter.  We were at the shelter on Thursday and I had NO problems with dogs pulling.  Even my husband noticed and asked why I'd got all the good dogs.  It was just because it finally clicked in me that I have to be in control from the second I approach the kennel.  Control doesn't mean being mean and apathetic, but just that I had to finally get over my hesistation and second guessing and realize that the dog WANTS me to be in control so that he can go about his walk without being so anxious and thinking he has to be pulling and snapping at all the other dogs.

You guys are all way more experienced than me so there's nothing I can offer in terms of advice.  I just wanted to say that in one week I've gone from being unconsciously fearful, giving my corrections too late, and not catching the dog fast enough as it begins to react to being in control, assertive, and aware of my body language and the body language of the dogs.  Before, I was slower to react and over-analyzing everything because I was scared I would do it wrong and make the dog worse.  Now I've really seen that in most cases, it IS as simple as not giving the dog the chance to take over, or just saying "heh" or giving it a little touch to keep it focused in the right place.  And of course, with a pocket full of treats, the process goes even better!

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

I've done a fair bit of calming with my girl, since I got her in January. The books above were great in terms of developing a nurturing rapport with my dog. They helped me learn to spot her distress early, before she acted out.

Now that we're a more confident and less fearful dog/human, I'm transitioning into a no nonsense "eh-eh" and just keep walking routine. I felt that I'd gotten to a point in which the nurturing was slowing our progress down, that stopping 20 feet from an oncoming dog to sit and calm was building a dysfunctional relationship.

I need for me and my dog to believe that leash walking past other dogs is just a normal, boring, no big whoop thing, not a special ritual that involves treats and pets. So, I decided we were ready to stop saying "we're ok, no one's gonna get us" and switch to "La la la, nothing special here, we're just walking along, la la la!" [] It's working great!

Since leash aggression has so much to do with the energy we, the owners, send down the leash, I'm pretty sure that much of the calming work we did was for my benefit [8D]. So, if the need arises to go back and do more calming, we know how and can do that []

I disagree with your assessment that "it's working great" when you asked for advice on how to do an "alpha roll" on another thread.  I believe that you were probably making some progress, but simply discontinued the training because you didn't find it worked quickly enough for your taste.  But, desensitization and counterconditioning is done at the dog's pace, not yours.  The reason tashakota has had some success is persistence pays off with this kind of training.  The dog needs to know that you will protect her (after all, with that leash on, she knows she cannot escape if something happens).  You are right when you say leash aggression has something to do with the energy you send down the leash.  What kind of energy do you suppose an alpha roll projects to the dog???  The handler who aggresses, either by pulling and tugging, or by rolling the dog, is not instilling confidence!  And, leash aggression (reactivity) is not helped by the dog being fearful, since fear or anxiety, or arousal, are what cause the problem in the first place.

Liesje, I see nothing wrong with projecting a more assertive and calm body language.  But, with the leash reactive dog, I would not correct, I would redirect a la "Feisty Fido" techniques.  Why?  Because correction may teach the dog "When I see other dogs, I get corrected - I don't like other dogs."  Sometimes, that can backfire on you, because the dog may suddenly snap and lunge or even bite another dog.  Focus on getting your dog's attention - that keeps his attention off the surrounding environment, no matter what's there - joggers, other dogs, squirrels, etc.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs


I disagree with your assessment that "it's working great" when you asked for advice on how to do an "alpha roll" on another thread.  I believe that you were probably making some progress, but simply discontinued the training because you didn't find it worked quickly enough for your taste.  But, desensitization and counterconditioning is done at the dog's pace, not yours.  The reason tashakota has had some success is persistence pays off with this kind of training.  The dog needs to know that you will protect her (after all, with that leash on, she knows she cannot escape if something happens).  You are right when you say leash aggression has something to do with the energy you send down the leash.  What kind of energy do you suppose an alpha roll projects to the dog???  The handler who aggresses, either by pulling and tugging, or by rolling the dog, is not instilling confidence!  And, leash aggression (reactivity) is not helped by the dog being fearful, since fear or anxiety, or arousal, are what cause the problem in the first place.

 

**Content removed**  Anne, first you cant say you think her technique is not working great if you are not right there at that moment with her, you are specualating, you cant say "simply discontinued the training because you didn't find it worked quickly enough for your taste" because you cant read Ixas mind either

When the handler corrects is instilling discipline, the way you feel when you do it is what is going to make the dog realize if you are confident or not, if you are calm while doing it the dog will realize you know what you are doing, you dont have doubts about it, etc and THEN the dog realizes he/she has a confident leader that will step up to the plate because the leader does not let his/her emotions affecting him/her, when the owner corrects she/he needs to do it in a calm way, if you correct with aggressive emotions then i totally agree with you that does not transmit confidence to the dog, THATS the difference between your idea of the technique (which is wrong) and the way to do it right

If you are doing it camly then you dont use extreme force that could cause pain to the dog, you are just letting the dog know "ok this is right and this is wrong", no pain, no fear, no emotions that could make the dog think you have doubts about yourself

Here's my novice understanding and thinking:

Aloff/Parsons offer desensitising/counter-conditioning techniques, in which the dog is comforted at a "safe" distance from the scary thing. A differing technique is called "flooding". "Flooding" was not something I was willing to try on my own, because I know I am too ignorant to handle certain situations.

So, I took Ixa to work with a trainer at a dog daycare. Ixa was taken into a room with some 15 dogs. She was put in the position of facing her fear, rather than being removed from it. In 10 minutes she started walking freely around the room, tail loose, tongue hanging out of smiling face. Not playing, mind you, but also not "dead from teh scary thing". This is "therapy" I will continue with, it is fantastic - for Ixa.

How would one "flood" on a leashed walk? By following the "comfort zone" protocols, Ixa's reactivity was being met with my keeping her at a comfortable distance. In order to avoid the scary thing, all she had to do was have a hissy fit, or indicate that she was about to. She had me trained to keep her where she wanted. What I'm trying to understand is, how can I *not* mover her away from the scary thing? How can I keep her there near it, while proving her safety, so that I have her trained to find the proximity unremarkable?

During breaks at dog training classes, where we're all on leash, I inch Ixa closer and closer to the other dogs. I ask her to down, then I pet her, which results in her laying on her side for a tummy rub. Replicating something similar to this on a leash walk isn't really so far from desensitising/counter-conditioning, after all, eh?

ETA: that last paragraph is a huge over-simplification, and it's awkwardness in meshing ideas reflects the fact that I'm still working these ideas out.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs


I disagree with your assessment that "it's working great" when you asked for advice on how to do an "alpha roll" on another thread.  I believe that you were probably making some progress, but simply discontinued the training because you didn't find it worked quickly enough for your taste.  But, desensitization and counterconditioning is done at the dog's pace, not yours.  The reason tashakota has had some success is persistence pays off with this kind of training.  The dog needs to know that you will protect her (after all, with that leash on, she knows she cannot escape if something happens).  You are right when you say leash aggression has something to do with the energy you send down the leash.  What kind of energy do you suppose an alpha roll projects to the dog???  The handler who aggresses, either by pulling and tugging, or by rolling the dog, is not instilling confidence!  And, leash aggression (reactivity) is not helped by the dog being fearful, since fear or anxiety, or arousal, are what cause the problem in the first place.

 

**Content removed**  Anne, first you cant say you think her technique is not working great if you are not right there at that moment with her, you are specualating, you cant say "simply discontinued the training because you didn't find it worked quickly enough for your taste" because you cant read Ixas mind either

When the handler corrects is instilling discipline, the way you feel when you do it is what is going to make the dog realize if you are confident or not, if you are calm while doing it the dog will realize you know what you are doing, you dont have doubts about it, etc and THEN the dog realizes he/she has a confident leader that will step up to the plate because the leader does not let his/her emotions affecting him/her, when the owner corrects she/he needs to do it in a calm way, if you correct with aggressive emotions then i totally agree with you that does not transmit confidence to the dog, THATS the difference between your idea of the technique (which is wrong) and the way to do it right

If you are doing it camly then you dont use extreme force that could cause pain to the dog, you are just letting the dog know "ok this is right and this is wrong", no pain, no fear, no emotions that could make the dog think you have doubts about yourself

You are stating your opinion, which you are entitled to, **Content Removed** This person's dog has a simple issue of leash reactivity, and you are not helping solve it by suggesting that she make an anxious dog even more anxious. [8|]

how can I *not* mover her away from the scary thing?

By continuing to move her away to distances at which she is comfortable and not reacting to the scary thing - rewarding her like crazy for staying calm, then shortening the distance very, very gradually. 

Discuss the topic and leave out the personal debate

ORIGINAL: Liesje
I think one of the most important thing with leash agressive and reactive dogs is for owners to understand just how much impact their body language and responses have to do with the dog's behavior.

Yes! I wish that were taught in basic obedience and manners classes, and I wish it were mentioned routinely as part of new dog owner advice! So much advice that's given is about reading the dog's behavior, rather than being aware of our own. It would be really easy to teach, and yes, that's one of the attractions to Millan's "train the human" mantra, IMNSHO.

Quoted from http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_05_22_a_dog.html:
"In the book "The Other End of the Leash," McConnell decodes one of the most common of all human-dog interactions—the meeting between two leashed animals on a walk. To us, it's about one dog sizing up another. To her, it's about two dogs sizing up each other after first sizing up their respective owners. The owners "are often anxious about how well the dogs will get along," she writes, "and if you watch them instead of the dogs, you'll often notice that the humans will hold their breath and round their eyes and mouths in an 'on alert' expression. Since these behaviors are expressions of offensive aggression in canine culture, I suspect that the humans are unwittingly signalling tension. If you exaggerate this by tightening the leash, as many owners do, you can actually cause the dogs to attack each other. Think of it: the dogs are in a tense social encounter, surrounded by support from their own pack, with the humans forming a tense, staring, breathless circle around them. I don't know how many times I've seen dogs shift their eyes toward their owner's frozen faces, and then launch growling at the other dog."

Regardless of where my dog and I are located in space, it's more the quality of how we are than where we are. My dog gets to stop being anxious, and relax in the back seat, when she knows I've got the wheel.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Most of the time, when owners think that these methods fail, it's not because they don't work, it's because the owner didn't recognize the distance at which they might need to work at first

True enough, often we learn where the line of compfort is by crossing over it. The manner in which we approach, respond, and move forward from that crossing-over moment is what *I'm* trying to undersatnd.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
By continuing to move her away

Would you be willing to describe exactly what is physically occuring during "continuing to move her away"? Is it luring her with treats? Dragging her by the collar? Pushing her butt?

Would you be willing to describe exactly what is physically occuring during "continuing to move her away"? Is it luring her with treats? Dragging her by the collar? Pushing her butt?

I never push a dog's butt, or drag by the collar (that's a good way to get a frightened or aroused dog to bite you).  With a leash reactive dog, I will try first to make some chirping or silly noise (as if to say - "hey, the party's this way") and encourage the dog to come along.  If the dog cannot manage that (and, remembering that they are probably too aroused to take a treat), I purposefully walk the other way, not "dragging", but simply going and expecting the dog will have to follow, since it is still on leash.  It usually only takes a few steps for the dog to realize you are "leaving", and they do tend to follow you, especially if you make yourself very interesting by talking cheerily, etc.  Once you are far enough away, you can reward the dog for catching up, and ask the dog to "sit" and reward her for the sit, and for good eye contact with you.

Now that we're a more confident and less fearful dog/human, I'm transitioning into a no nonsense "eh-eh" and just keep walking routine. I felt that I'd gotten to a point in which the nurturing was slowing our progress down, that stopping 20 feet from an oncoming dog to sit and calm was building a dysfunctional relationship.

It's interesting how folks approach this reactivity problem from two opposite directions. One: you see dog X, Buddy starts freaking out. You acknowledge his actions and stop the walk to train/mark the appropriate calm response. Two: you see dog X, Buddy is freaking out. You don't acknowledge his reactions and you don't stop to mark calm response. From my limited experience with my own dog, who doesn't always like black labs ([8|]), what works best for us is approach number two - keep on walking, don't stop. When appropriate, direct dog's energy towards something more productive - give him a command to search, think of an incompatible behavior and ask your dog to do it (carry a stick is a good one if the dog is not flipping).

PS. I am fighting this anxiety of black dogs myself. I feel like I can't distinguish their facial expressions... or something, so I can't see how they carry themselves... Me and my husband are a sort of amazed on how my problem transfered to my own dog. But enough about me.