Leash Aggression

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
I purposefully walk the other way, not "dragging", but simply going and expecting the dog will have to follow, since it is still on leash.

That makes sense to me if I catch it when my dog is just fixated or begin to move towards getting amped up. But if she's already amped up, or even in full blown panick attack (aka flipping like a fish), how do you "purposefully walk the other way" without it amounting to dragging?

I know the idea is to not get that far, I'm speaking if/when it *does* happen.

Update on my program of “other dogs are no big whoop” (formerly known as "the leash aggression problem"):

The more I take Ixa to dog daycare for 1-2 hour sessions, the more relaxed she is there (even played with another dog for 2 minutes!!)!
The more relaxed Ixa#%92s becoming in the company of other dogs, the more I trust her!
The more I trust her, the less I am reactive to the approach of other dogs!
The less reactive I am, the less reactive Ixa is!
Ta da!
Loving it!
[]!

Yesterday, I noticed that my knee jerk response is to always look at Ixa when we are approaching another dog. I was used to doing this when I was desensitizing her - I had to, so I could gauge her reactiveness, and keep her from going past her comfort zone. I realized that my looking at her, reading her, was the very thing that was making her get reactive! Because I was looking to her to decide what would happen next! In order to be responsive to her, I had to give her my attention. But in giving her my attention, I was failing to set a tone that said “eh, dog, no big whoop.” Endless cycle.

I am finding that if I don't give attention to Ixa or the other dog (or cat), there's just no energy (or at least less), and we can keep going.

I do think there's value to desensitizing, however, as is clear from the daycare visits. But now I'm thinking that I can restrict that to particualr situations that are designed for it, rather than derailing the walk with it. So, I can do the desensitisation during breaks at obedience class, or in training sessions near the dog park, and leave the walks clean.

TinaK - how are you working on your anxiety over black dogs? I've talked with the daycare trainer about volunteering there, so I can get more comfortable around other dogs, and more used to their doggy ways.

Funny, but I just read an article of a behaviorist that you pointed out in one of the threads, and he mentioned a few things about this reactivity towards dark-colored dogs. Basically, this reactivity comes from fear. Fear from not being able to read body language in dark-colored dogs and hence its intentions! (That's actually the reason why some dogs bark at black folks.) I don't know anymore if this cycle started with me or my dog... I was on a look out for a pattern in Jack's barking defensively towards certain dogs. At first I thought it was male-to-male aggression, but I don't think it's the case anymore, as he is fine with some males, even ones that are not neutered (just like him). I think, I just got my finger on it.
I read about on-leash aggression, etc., and unfortunately for Jack, I've tried too many techniques in a quick secession... I've learned that switching them too fast is, basically, no good. I observe his reaction, as his behavior really baffles me sometimes. For example, if he barks at a dog in an elevator, he'd stop barking if a dog turns away from him. He doesn't care about any colored dogs - black or white, if I give him a command to find something and especially if he is off-leash. He has pretty good working instincts, so I use it to my advantage. In a way I am learning from him how to treat his uncertainty of black dogs.

Once I walked the dog late at night, and I saw a silhouette of Jack's doggy-pal and his owner. I said - Yey, lets go see your buddy! Jack did freeze for a bit, but then he followed me. I approached the dog and let Jack sniff it. I then saw that the owner and her dog were not who I thought they were - it was a big dark-colored dog who Jack never met before. I then looked at Jack, he was unsure and skittish, but then in a second he was happily jumping in a play-bow. I thought to myself, wow - if only I knew it wasn't Jack's buddy, things would be different. My husband walked Jack since then, and they met the same doggy - they were playing. It' amazing how my our own behavior in these sort of encounters can ether make it or break it...

EDITED: I can work on desensitizing him to things he is afraid of - black dogs, but I don't know if desensitizing him to one black dog would generalize to the rest of them. He does know a couple of dark-colored dogs, he recognizes them by smell, and he knows they cause no danger. But what about all the other dark-colored doggies? I suppose for him, every dog he meets is an individual with its own smell and its own intentions. He has one thing that's constant though - me... [] I have to figure out how to convince him or/and distract him. Convincing would be the way to go, because that would remove the motif for the particular behavior. But I don't know how to do it. [&o]

The point is that if you have a reactive dog, you should be a proactive handler and learn where your dog's "trigger distance" is, and work hard to notice when another dog might be getting close to that zone.  You can then gain control of the situation more easily.
As to the "continuing to walk by", that does work for the human, but what does it really teach the dog?  I like to reward the dog for his attention to me, so that his default behavior becomes "see another dog - look at mom". JMHO.  Nothing says you can't do that "on the move".

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

The point is that if you have a reactive dog, you should be a proactive handler and learn where your dog's "trigger distance" is, and work hard to notice when another dog might be getting close to that zone.

This would work in a controlled environment, but when living in an apartment building and using elevators- you get in, then doors open - black dog. Fortunately that's only one dog that lives below us... But nevertheless, it's awaiting right at the door! I don't have control over the distance at that moment.

I like to reward the dog for his attention to me, so that his default behavior becomes "see another dog - look at mom". JMHO. Nothing says you can't do that "on the move".

Good point - watch while on the move!

As to the "continuing to walk by", that does work for the human, but what does it really teach the dog?

That's a good question. I don't know, but I think we are sometimes underestimating the power of ignoring a scary object, if the reaction is coming from a pack leader. This behaviorist I talked about above, makes a good comparison to our behavior in airplanes. When the plane hits turbulence, watch everyone#%92s first reactions; they look to the Stewards/Stewardesses to see if they are showing anxiety. If they are calm and acting as they were, our own anxiety dissipates. In this scenario, we are reacting to something we can't explain (we won't ever be able to 'explore' the turbulence) - all we know, is that those on whom we're relying on are calm, hence follows our relaxation!

I am reading articles from a very interesting book by this Russian trainer/vet (he is also an expert at a criminal lab working with sniffer-dogs). And, he recommends teaching a dog to carry an object while walking (i.e. teaching incompatible behavior). The idea is to teach a dog that its job, while out with a pack, is to carry this object and not let it go... I'll try this.
I think teaching incomparable behaviors follows a totally different logic than starting away from of a scary black dog and slowly decreasing the distance overtime. The dog's energy is directed forward, his attention is on the oner and on the job, rather than on that scary thing.

I thought, what would Millan do? He'd probably say that that method develops fixation, and that's no good - fixated minds have no limits... But then I think: humans were the ones who selectively bred this dog to work in a field day and night. So, for crying out loud, let the boy carry a stick, pretend he is working. [8|] []

ORIGINAL: TinaK

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
The point is that if you have a reactive dog, you should be a proactive handler and learn where your dog's "trigger distance" is, and work hard to notice when another dog might be getting close to that zone.

This would work in a controlled environment,

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking - only do the desensitisation in controlled environments, so there's little chance of accidently getting into the red zone. The whole trick with desensitising is to *not* get in the red zone, but in the real world ... like you said, life happens.

How leaders respond in crisis is really the meat of so much responsibility (Love the flight attendant analogy []). If I don't have a good "red zone" plan in place, then I totally fail my dog. It's fine to be able to sail a perfectly calibrated ship on a calm sea, but the old coot who can maneuver a tin can in a big storm is worth his weight in salt (pun intended).

ORIGINAL: TinaK
I am reading articles from a very interesting book by this Russian trainer/vet (he is also an expert at a criminal lab working with sniffer-dogs).

Sounds like a great read, author an title, please! []

Giving the dog a job to do is one reason backpacks are so helpful. The dog is busy "carrying" the pack and it's contents.

I really liked the flight attendent analogy, too! []

Yes, a more controlled environment is quite different than the "real" world filled with strangers, other dogs, other animals, and unfamiliar objects. We have less control over external factors. So, we can start with self-control and self-mastery, control within our relationship with our dog by being seen as the leader, and control of our dog in the real world. Everything else exists (more or less) outside of this area of control, so my primary focus is on personal responsibility, responsibility to my dog's safety and the safety of society, and putting my efforts where my energy is most productively spent. []

Personally, I don't use any treats, clickers, toys, distractions, or training sessions during "the walk" or in social situations. I want the dog's focus on me through the leadership position I hold within the relationship, especially in outside-world social and high distraction situations.

If I'm working on desensitization (my own way - no food), it also comes from the relationship. If I shift into a working mode demeanor, my dog watches me, trusts me, and ignores the distractions naturally.

I've found there is value in using a certain amount of distance, especially with fearful and insecure dogs. With dogs who have had little socialization, poor social skills, or exposure to the real world, the unknown must be made more familiar and the dog must gain a certain level of confidence in their leader's choices and in themselves through a more gradual experience in some cases, IMO.

ORIGINAL: TinaK

As to the "continuing to walk by", that does work for the human, but what does it really teach the dog?

That's a good question. I don't know, but I think we are sometimes underestimating the power of ignoring a scary object, if the reaction is coming from a pack leader. This behaviorist I talked about above, makes a good comparison to our behavior in airplanes. When the plane hits turbulence, watch everyone's first reactions; they look to the Stewards/Stewardesses to see if they are showing anxiety. If they are calm and acting as they were, our own anxiety dissipates. In this scenario, we are reacting to something we can't explain (we won't ever be able to 'explore' the turbulence) - all we know, is that those on whom we're relying on are calm, hence follows our relaxation!

I am reading articles from a very interesting book by this Russian trainer/vet (he is also an expert at a criminal lab working with sniffer-dogs). And, he recommends teaching a dog to carry an object while walking (i.e. teaching incompatible behavior). The idea is to teach a dog that its job, while out with a pack, is to carry this object and not let it go... I'll try this.
I think teaching incomparable behaviors follows a totally different logic than starting away from of a scary black dog and slowly decreasing the distance overtime. The dog's energy is directed forward, his attention is on the oner and on the job, rather than on that scary thing.

I thought, what would Millan do? He'd probably say that that method develops fixation, and that's no good - fixated minds have no limits... But then I think: humans were the ones who selectively bred this dog to work in a field day and night. So, for crying out loud, let the boy carry a stick, pretend he is working. [8|] []

There is nothing wrong with giving a dog a "job" if it helps. []  I do always want my dogs to know when their behavior has pleased me, so I still think it's fine to reward the dog once they catch up to you, or for a few strides in which they "ignore" the scary thing, just as you are doing - dogs also learn from other "dogs", so your demeanor does teach them, but I think it's faster bolstered by a marker and reward.  C/T or "yes" & treat (or other reinforcer - frisbee, ball, tug, praise).

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl
Sounds like a great read, author an title, please! []

The guy's name is Vladimir Gritcenko (Grizenko?) I printed out a few chapters from his book (which is in Russian by the way); the book is called "Behavior correction or rehabilitation of dogs". Seems like this book is at the top of the book list of all Russian dog lovers, and is recommended by many. My mom found the book online, so she'll order a hard copy for me. I am taking notes (in English), so I'll try to post them here. [] I love it. [8D] My brain is a bit swollen from translating, but it's a good exersize anyway.