mastering the walk

    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

    Moreover, though, I have to admit, the whole notion of going for controlled linear walks at a steady human pace seems like a fundamentally and absurdly unnatural activity for a dog. I think human walking and dog walking are pretty much incompatible, and the fact that the dog sticks anywhere near you and doesn't pull too much is a testament to just how much leadership you are providing. (Oh, wait is that leadership, or dinner?!? [8D] ).


    I walk with several dogs at a quick pace off leash (along with some on leash) for 4 to 6 miles a day. Half way through I allow play time, (chasing a ball, chasing each other) then we finish the walk back. The dogs have no ploblem keeping the pace *I* set. They are calm and happy the rest of the day, sooooo.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Again, if they desire walking so much, then why don't mine walk??  Often I am outside with them alone....it's 6 against 1.  No leads, no lines, no fence......if they wanted to walk, run or whatever, I certainly couldn't stop them.  If this is a basic, inbred need, it would seem like they'd gang up and GO.
     
    I'm sorry but I resent the implication that my dogs are in some way not having their needs met.  I am up extremely early every morning FOR the dogs, I work (today was the last day of THAT) at a job I hate all day, come home, start dinner, change my clothes, and go out in the yard with them for either fetch or a run on the course....I'm typically out for an hour with them, despite the dark, cold, snow, or whatever the weather is throwing at us.  Saturday mornings I'm up and cooking for them well before dawn, THEY get their romp through the fields before I do any of the things I need to do around the house, and danged if I don't get up extra early on SUNDAYS as well so that they can get a romp before I go and volunteer at the old folks home.  If that is somehow not enough, not good enough, not meeting their needs, well, heck, I guess someone should just shoot me and put them out of their misery.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: glenmar

    Again, if they desire walking so much, then why don't mine walk??  Often I am outside with them alone....it's 6 against 1.  No leads, no lines, no fence......if they wanted to walk, run or whatever, I certainly couldn't stop them.  If this is a basic, inbred need, it would seem like they'd gang up and GO.



    Actually...dogs can learn to be lazy. It's just that simple.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: glenmar  If that is somehow not enough, not good enough, not meeting their needs, well, heck, I guess someone should just shoot me and put them out of their misery.


    Why do things have to go to that extreme? Why as a Mod do you feel the need to take a open shot like that? As a *leader* here shouldn't you set the example for others?
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Angelique
    The walk (CM style) is an excellent exercise because if you understand and use the philosophy, it works very well in heading off behavior problems before they even begin.

    I live out in the sticks where I can really turn my dog loose, but I still use the structured walk because I find it to be a very helpful "working mentality" exercise too. Handy in social situations because once in "the zone", she ignores distractions, other dogs, people, etc...this helps in others feeling safe around her and she is not doing things which provoke other dogs either.

     
    I like it when the home situation is included to help bring home a point.  It makes it so much more creditible.  It shows the diversity among us and how we cope and adjust to make our dogs have a better life.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: DPU


    I like it when the home situation is included to help bring home a point.  It makes it so much more creditible.  It shows the diversity among us and how we cope and adjust to make our dogs have a better life.


    Well said.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Awsomedog, I was posting as a forum member, not as a moderator.  And, being a moderator doesn't make me any less human than anyone else.
     
    If you would prefer, I'll not post in this section, but rather just read and moderate as need be.  I had HOPED to gain a better understanding of the position of those who praise CM so intently, but I don't think that's going to happen.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Is it the walk on a leash that benefits or loose dog situation?
     
    I hardly ever leash my dogs on a walk.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: glenmar

    Awsomedog, I was posting as a forum member, not as a moderator.  And, being a moderator doesn't make me any less human than anyone else.

    If you would prefer, I'll not post in this section, but rather just read and moderate as need be.  I had HOPED to gain a better understanding of the position of those who praise CM so intently, but I don't think that's going to happen.


    Ok...this is why I don't come here much. There seams to be this misunderstanding between the CM crowd and the "outsiders" that IMO will never change. My take is...do what makes you happy with your dog, it's your dog. I am not God and can't proclaim MY WAY IS THE WAY. LOL I just know what I do works to help rehabilitate troubled dogs.

    You say you want to understand...actually so do I. Perhaps you can tell me what Cesar does...wrong?
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: snownose

    Is it the walk on a leash that benefits or loose dog situation?

    I hardly ever leash my dogs on a walk.

     
    For me and my dog, I find benefits in a balance of the two. Free-time is also beneficial and healthy as part of the whole picture. IMO
     
    My dog walks a lot off-leash, and sometimes with a backpack, too.
    • Gold Top Dog
    As far as I can remember, I've never SAID that CM does anything wrong.  I don't typically use the same methods, those that I find "rough", but that doesn't mean that I am a blatant critic of the man or the methods that he uses.  I'm genuinely puzzled over what *I* see as an almost cult like devotion to this guy.  There is not a trainer on the planet that I feel that zealous about.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: glenmar

     I'm genuinely puzzled over what *I* see as an almost cult like devotion to this guy. 

     
    I think it goes both ways.  There are some people who seem to make it their mission to oppose everything Cesar does.  It's weird.  It's probably the television factor.  If he weren't on t.v., maybe less people would care.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: glenmar

    As far as I can remember, I've never SAID that CM does anything wrong.  I don't typically use the same methods, those that I find "rough", but that doesn't mean that I am a blatant critic of the man or the methods that he uses.  I'm genuinely puzzled over what *I* see as an almost cult like devotion to this guy.  There is not a trainer on the planet that I feel that zealous about.


    People like who they like, I liked Steve Irwin, thought what he did was wonderful. I like Cesar he helps people and dogs, what's not to like? Perhaps it seams people seem cultish about him because they like what he does, their asked why on the internet, they try to explain his ways (which only he can do) and why they like him, only IMO to catch attitude. Is there attitude on both sides? Yes. But where does it start? Which came first the chicken or the egg? I think some come here really wanting to undstand *his* ways...but again only he can do that. But we all know there are some that come here that don't like him...and...that! Will never go well for a rational discussion.
    • Bronze
    ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

    Perhaps you can tell me what Cesar does...wrong?



    The following links can explain it far better than I:

    [linkhttp://www.4pawsu.com/cesar.htm]http://www.4pawsu.com/cesar.htm[/link]
    [linkhttp://www.americanhumane.org/site/PageServer?pagename=nr_news_releases_dog_whisperer]http://www.americanhumane.org/site/PageServer?pagename=nr_news_releases_dog_whisperer[/link]
    [linkhttp://www.animalbehavior.net/PUBLIC/CesarMillan_Luescher.htm]http://www.animalbehavior.net/PUBLIC/CesarMillan_Luescher.htm[/link]
    [linkhttp://www.stevedalepetworld.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=203&Itemid=71]http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=203&Itemid=71[/link]

    CM often makes use of a technique frequently called the "alpha roll" or "alpha roll-over." This technique came about after short-term studies on wolf packs were done in the 1940s. We have since disproved many of the findings from those studies, including the "alpha roll." The technique is frowned upon by many modern professionals and experts. It can be dangerous when an uneducated owner attempts it at home, even after being shown how to do it properly. More reading on dominance and pack behavior can be found here: [linkhttp://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm]http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm[/link]

    "At Wolf Park in Indiana, the researchers have been carefully observing wolves for years. Although the wolves are socialized to humans, they still live in packs and are even given the opportunity to hunt bison. Contrary to relying on such gross signals as alpha rolls and muzzle biting, the researchers have learned to observe how wolves flex the tiny muscles that flare the vibrissae (the whiskers at the sides of the muzzle) to warn another to back off." - an excerpt from page 41 of The Rosetta Bone by Cheryl S. Smith

    Even if you don't subscribe to the notion that some of his techniques are outdated and/or inhumane, you're missing out on some significant benefits of more positive methods by following his punishment-only ways.

    The following is an excerpt from Chapter 3 ("Emotions and the Brain") of For the Love of a Dog : Understanding Emotion in You and Your Best Friend by Patricia B. McConnell, Ph.D.



    [blockquote]

      Food is a great motivator to both people and dogs and is a great way to teach dogs both basic obedience, like "Sit" and "Stay," and advanced tricks, like rolling themselves up in a blanket when you say "Go to bed." This isn't just because food tastes good; in fact, dogs don't have taste buds as sophisticated as ours. It's also because food has strong odors associated with it, and the sense of smell is directly linked with the areas associated with pleasure (or disgust) in the limbic system. Indeed, the smell of food is so closely linked with primitive emotional centers that neurologists believe the limbic system first evolved as a way of evaluating whether food was good for you--or would make you sick. Good smells equaled good food, which made you feel good. Bad smells equaled bad food, which made you feel bad. Simple as that.
      Now, of course, things aren't so simple, but both you and your dog are still strongly affected by what you smell. If your dog learns to associate the good smells of food with sitting when you ask, then you're teaching his brain to feel good when he listens to you. This is one of the reasons you can use food to get a behavior started, and then drop it out once the behavior has become a habit. You don't need to carry dog treats around in your pocket for the rest of your dog's life, because you've wired his brain to associate listening to you with feeling good. If, on the other hand, you train primarily using force (perhaps you use a leash correction to make your dog sit), you're missing out on a remarkable opportunity to condition a primal, positive association between obedience to you and his reaction to good food. Additionally, if you use force you're probably stimulating the fear centers in his limbic system, so that he learns to associate you with the potential of danger. It's a shame how common it is for people to use force and coercion on their dogs, when there's no question that positive techniques, besides being more humane, are simply more effective.[/blockquote]

    CM does a lot of good. Thanks to his television show more owners are becoming active with their dogs. Both human and dog are getting out, getting exercise, and stimulating their brains. They're even attempting to train their dogs with varying degrees of success. Not only that, but he's giving hope to owners who feel hopeless about their dog's behavior. He may even be saving canine lives. But some of his techniques are outdated, difficult for the regular dog owner to duplicate, and some are even inhumane. And if someone (be it adult or [linkhttp://iaabc.org/articles/dog_whisperer.htm]child[/link]) attempts one of these controversial techniques and fails it may cost them their safety, their life, or a dog its life. I think that's a shame, particularly since it's preventable.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Different thread same debate...but wait is the topic not
    "Mastering the walk?"
     
    Now I'm confussed, I fell like I'm in an episode of the twilight zone...it can't be the drugs, I got off of them two days ago......
     
    So how is it we master the walk, thats why I came in this thread....