mastering the walk

minimom

[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]Yay for you! Amazing isn't it. I hear every excuse under the sun for not walking dogs. But when one *sees* for themself what a difference it makes...in their dogs lives...well then. For most humans, one must see to believe.

ORIGINAL: minimom
[color=#000000]For me, and I really mean for me...my particular situation,  with only two dogs and a pleasant and safe neighborhood to walk in, it's such a simple thing to do to bring them so much happiness.[/color]

 
Thank you so much for respecting other situation.  With my older Great Dane Blizzard I know that she would just lay down and not get up for a very long walk.   I also know she will be stiff and in pain the next day.  You must agree that there are so many other different ways one can make accomodation and fullfill the dogs need.  Glad it works for you.

Left to their own devices, my dogs never walk steadily like dogs on leash walks have to-- they prefer to trot or run, much faster than I can walk, and spend a lot of time stopping and sniffing around. I presume "free" dogs would also never venture outside of their home territory-- it must be weird to dogs to be constantly taken outside of their territories and into other dog's territories.
I'm not a fan of the leash walk. It's such a human thing. Dogs want to go fast and then stop and sniff, and repeat.  Running next to a bike, fetch games, swimming, or being jogged is a better way to actually exercise a dog. Even a small dog gets practically nil exercise benefit from walking at a human pace.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

Even a small dog gets practically nil exercise benefit from walking at a human pace.

 
Old example of taking a kid to Chucky Cheese to do "excersice" or a soccer practice, if the dog focuses on walk then he will get the excersice and it does not matter if its at human pace or not, try it, do it for 20 minutes and you will see

Again, if my dogs wanted to walk or run or take a romp in the fields without me, they could.  They are outside the fence, without leads or drag lines.  I'm not terribly big, or strong or fast, yet they choose to stay with me.  And honestly?  My dogs much prefer their romps through the woods to the in town on lead walks where they have to remember their leash manners.  I honestly don't think their dogs would be at all "enriched" by more on lead walks.  Off lead romps in the woods, yeah, likely, but again, there is NOTHING stopping them from doing their own thing without me.

Something came up on another thread about walking and it got me thinking about CMs philosophy on this (and, it appears, many people here have the same or similar philosophy)  So I came here specifically to post my question but I find a thread already open pretty much discussing what I was thinking about.
 
He says that "birds fly, fish swim, dogs walk"  Is that right?  Many people here are of the opinion that a daily "walk out" (not just a backyard romp) is essential to a dog's well being. 
 
And my thought was this:  CM bases much of his philosophy on "wild" dogs, drawing parallels between them and our pets to understand them better,.... right?  Well, in the wild territories don't overlap.  The only time you would leave the territory would be to migrate to new territory.  The only time you would leave the safety of the den and surrounding area would be to "hunt".  Not all would go on the hunt - some would stay behind to look after pups etc.  No one just goes out on a jolly, deliberately crossing other territories.... and when this does happen, it is occasionally, not every day.  So why does CM believe "birds fly..... etc"  How did he get to that conclusion?
 
And the second thing I was thinking about was this:  Part of "the walk" is establishing leadership... yes?  You have to walk out front to demonstrate your "status"...... ????  But, again looking at wild packs, how often do we see "alphas" "leading" in that way?
 
And lastly, does this mean that someone with, shall we say, "good leadership skills" has less need of "the walk" than those with poor skills who need to blitz the dog with "alpha signals" daily, in part by using the "power walk" and therefore helping to strengthen their leadership..... Is the walk as much for the human's benefit as for the dog's physical exercise?  That opportunity to reaffirm themselves at the top as it were?
 
Have I got the whole philosophy completely @r$e about face or can someone fill in the holes in the philosophy that I am finding?

ORIGINAL: DPU

A dog walks to fullfill a need.  And what is that need?

 
Yes Chuffy, the question above was overlooked but you stated my question more eloquently.

I always thought that dogs in the wild run a lot to hunt for food, once that has been established and bellies are full they usually hang around the den. I feel that my dogs get enough mental stimulation through training, playing and certainly enough exercise. When they come out of the gate they are not leashed, as as the pic in my sig line shows, we run around do our thing outside with several walks a week, but I don't see a walk every day necessary in my situation. I live on 2.5 acres out in the boonies, plenty to sniff, and get nosy over.[]

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: DPU

A dog walks to fullfill a need.  And what is that need?

Yes Chuffy, the question above was overlooked but you stated my question more eloquently.

 
More long windedly you mean!!!!
 
If you've covered the physical exercise because you have enough space in your yard, covered the mental exercise through training, play and interaction and covered the "leadership" in all your other interactions....  Then why do owners who are not willing or able to go out for a walk their dogs get put down as irresponsible/blind/uncaring/ignorant/whatever....? 
 
They say "a change is as good as a rest".... Does that "change" need to be EVERY day?  Perhaps some breeds/types/individuals need less than others? 
 
I only think this because something someone said recently about "Jack Russell don't need to go for walks, they don't need exercise" and my automatic response was: "All dogs need a walk every day!!"  And I notice others here have the same response:  You got a dog, now you have to make sure you walk it every day... It's one of the basic needs. 
 
It's probably a personality flaw that I question basic assumptions and scrutinise them like this...........

Chuffy, I have to find where I got this quote from... (I cut and paste things), but here are some scientific observations on gray wolves:

"Although dominant breeding wolves provided most leadership, we found that subordinate wolves, both breeders and nonbreeders, also provided leadership during travel. Dominant breeding wolves might share leadership in order to take advantage of pooled experience in a territory, although in this study a newly arrived dominant male showed the greatest tendency to lead. Shared leadership might reduce the energy expenditure of dominant individuals, such as in deep snow. Shallow snow prevailed in this study and we were unable to evaluate whether switching of leadership roles might increase with the cost of travel, which seems plausible. The ecological cost of travel for a 23-kg wolf was calculated to be 16% of daily energy expenditure (Steudel 2000), and this proportion would be higher for gray wolves, like those in Yellowstone National Park, that weigh twice this amount. Finally, shared leadership might spread the risks associated with travel, such as encountering fast water or thin ice. In two of the three packs in this study, the tendency of dominant females to lead declined in late winter, after the annual breeding season, when they are usually pregnant."

We caution against attaching undue significance to our observation that subordinate wolves sometimes led packs. Even though the subtle social interactions involved in travel coordination are difficult to observe, we found that dominant breeding wolves often made decisions that affected the pack's direction even when not in the lead. It is common in social species for subordinate individuals to closely monitor dominant leaders, so it is necessary to distinguish decision-makers, the true leaders, from initiators, who merely suggest a direction (Byrne 2000)."

I will look and see if I can find the link to the while article.

Edited: This comes from "Leadership Behavior in Relation to Dominance and
Reproductive Status in Gray Wolves, Canis lupus"http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/wolflead/discuss.htm .

Thank you Tina.... I feel validated.  It doesn't matter where my dogs are in relation to me.... I place no significance on who is in front and I don't think they do either.  As long as the lead is nice and slack we keep going.... they can wander out to the side, up front a little or hang back for a sniff.....  But when the lead goes taut I change my pace and direction..... thus I may not be "leading" physically (out front) but I am definately in control of our pace and direction.  I think this is much easier to apply and if "the walk" has any signficance at all in the dog's eyes leadership-wise, I believe this is the way to get the right message across.

It gets even more complicated:

However, we note that in the one case in which a dominant breeder was recruited from outside the pack, the newly arrived male tended to lead more than any other wolf observed in this study (Table 2), perhaps showing an assertiveness similar to the higher rate of scent-marking documented for newly formed wolf pairs (Rothman and Mech 1979).

I have to see where I pulled that from.

To me "showing an assertiveness" is testing, as in: "what do you think of my abilities to lead this pack?".

I always enjoy reading and comparing different wolf studies, even though dogs are not wolves...there are some similarities. Who knows what silent forms of communication is being passed between them which we don't see?

Part of what I pay attention to also, is whether a dog is showing any symtoms of frustration or instability. The frustration can be from pent up energy when the dog's basic physical needs are being met (depending on the dog and their breed) and/or instability due to confusion caused by lack of leadership. I know we've talked about this in quite a few threads. Reading Cesar's book "Cesar's Way" and watching his show helps to understand this.

If someone is not seeing behavior problems including aggression, insecurity, destruction, neurotic behaviors, etc...and others consider their dog to be a stable, safe member of society who is welcome pretty much anywhere, then I would say they are probably doing something right.

The walk (CM style) is an excellent exercise because if you understand and use the philosophy, it works very well in heading off behavior problems before they even begin.

I live out in the sticks where I can really turn my dog loose, but I still use the structured walk because I find it to be a very helpful "working mentality" exercise too. Handy in social situations because once in "the zone", she ignores distractions, other dogs, people, etc...this helps in others feeling safe around her and she is not doing things which provoke other dogs either.

She is a great help in dealing with unstable dogs because she helps me influence them.

Many uses, many good reasons. Works great for me. []

For every study one can find, there's one that contradicts it. The fact is...wild dogs, feral dogs, and even some country dogs walk to find food to hunt, check out their territory, and find new places to sleep. The only dogs that don't walk, are *some* dogs that belong to humans. If ones wishes to believe dogs don't enjoy walking, and that it's not physically and mentally healthy for them, that's their choice. But that does make it true.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

He says that "birds fly, fish swim, dogs walk" Is that right? Many people here are of the opinion that a daily "walk out" (not just a backyard romp) is essential to a dog's well being.

And my thought was this: CM bases much of his philosophy on "wild" dogs, drawing parallels between them and our pets to understand them better,.... right? Well, in the wild territories don't overlap. The only time you would leave the territory would be to migrate to new territory.

My dog's own territory is not a geographical block like that of wolves, it is a splatter of the regular places we spend time in or get out of the car and move through. My dog's behavior is different in her own territory (scattered as it might be) than it is in unfamiliar territories. She is much more likely to walk next to or behind me, rather than ahead, when in a new place. Similarly, her pack (social group) is scattered, not living under one roof.

Thie first time I saw Ixa tear full speed across an empty sheep pen, I realized just how lame our walks are in terms of *exercise*. I think a high percentage of pulling issues begin with fit dog/unfit human.

Moreover, though, I have to admit, the whole notion of going for controlled linear walks at a steady human pace seems like a fundamentally and absurdly unnatural activity for a dog. I think human walking and dog walking are pretty much incompatible, and the fact that the dog sticks anywhere near you and doesn't pull too much is a testament to just how much dinner you are providing ...erm, I mean leadership you are providing. [8D]