mastering the walk

I took some treats and my clicker on our walk last night and I saw a drastic improvement. I started out by clicking when Luke was walking by my side - and he seemed to like that quite a bit. Then, whenever he would start to run ahead of me, I would turn around and start walking the other way. It didn't take very long for him to realize that when he walks by my side he gets treats and praise. Then I started introducing the verbal cue of "walk" whenever he was walking calmly by my side.

 
Bingo.
 
I've read the whole thread but this post is the most worthy of reply from my experience.
 
You're new here, so others can read while I tell that my dog, Shadow, is a mix of Siberian Husky and Lab, but pretty much Husky in temperment and metabolism and some physiology. I've always let him walk in front, the natural inclination to pull hard and run fast, as befits his predominant breed.
 
But here, lately, I've been teaching him heel with the clicker.
 
Point being, that there are several ways of teaching heel. I tend to go for the positive approach first, especially now. But in any case, regardless of style, it is important for the dog to know what you want. So, communication is always the key.

Ron,
 
Do you still need the clicker and the treats? What would happen if you stopped for a week?
 
What is your goal?
 
[]
 
 

Oh, putting a backpack on Ella changes her almost COMPLETELY.

 
I wonder if a backpack has a similar effect to a calming wrap like they use for storms. If you ever get the chance, I'd love to know how she responds while wearing a snug T-Shirt.

ORIGINAL: Stacita

Oh, putting a backpack on Ella changes her almost COMPLETELY.

I wonder if a backpack has a similar effect to a calming wrap like they use for storms. If you ever get the chance, I'd love to know how she responds while wearing a snug T-Shirt.

 
Yes! I was just thinking about this last night. I do think there is something a bit similar going on. The main difference is there is a working mode mentality going on with the backpack.
 
So many times physical contact methods can refocus, calm, or communicate with an animal, where a purely remote and hands-off method can't.
 
Interesting. []

I've always thought that a touch/physical contact means as much to dogs as language does to us.... just a nudge, or a swing by the side; touch with your hand vs. a side of your knee. It depends on the dog and how comfortable they are. I am just starting to see how attentive my dog is with this kind of communication. I don't now why hands off is so "positive"... but what do i know.
PS. As I am writing this my dog came up to me, looked like he got choked after drinking water... went down the wrong pipe. He wanted me to do something with my hand, I didn't know what. I stretched it out, he moved his throat towards it and rubbed against. What does this mean?? Anyway, right now I have my whole pack lined up against me on the couch butt to butt. []

So many times physical contact methods can refocus, calm, or communicate with an animal, where a purely remote and hands-off method can't.

 
This thread brought that to mind. Floyd is still afraid of the vet. It has improved as he no longer has diarhea for two days after a simple weigh in and can obey simple commands. But he's afraid, sheds profusely etc. I thought I'd try this starting with just a weigh in then progressing to a nail trim, etc. At some point, it would of course have to come off, but a thought worth exploring.
 
Besides, he'd look very sharp in a vintage Stones concert Tee.

Initially, I might need the treats and clicker a lot. Eventually, as the behavior is put on cue or command, I can fade the clicker and then the treats. That is, just treat randomly.

OTOH, I have a lot of patience and will manage the environment until I have achieved the heel that I want. Managing, such as controlling the range or distance of distracting stimuli, then gradually introduce stimuli and achieve stronger obedience, regardless of stimuli to the contrary.

If I had to do something immediately, I would consider a prong collar but even that takes time and training to the dog to understand what it means. I don't use any corrective collar on Shadow. I use a regular walking harness that you can get at Petco. When we go into a crowded public scene, I wrap the leash around my hand which has the physical effect of keeping him close to me.

If I need to use the leash for exercise, how do I move a lot and move fast, then switch to controlled training with behavior restrictions?

If the order of concepts for dogs is exercise - discipline - affection, but I've got to use the leash to do the first step, that means I've got to use the leash improperly for exercise till the dog has learned to walk properly? Otherwise, my dog won't get exercise for the 2 or so weeks I am training her up the steps (using the Boyke description Angelique referred to).

I asked that question too because I live in the city. For me it seemed to be either "training-type" walk with loose leash, or exercise-type walk with not so loose leash. It's hard living downtown - I can't be a tree in the middle of the intersection, it's busy - sirens, taxis, I don't feel like I can control the environment...
Basically the idea is that your every walk has to be a "training" walk. Don't let them pull once - consistency. There are times when you just need to get somewhere, or exercise your dog, then, you can use a harness, or a Gentle Leader, back pack, etc., just to walk your dog without pulling. Then again, back to a normal collar, train, train, train.
I won't use any of these collars with my dog. When I have no time to train we jog, or I drive. I am avoiding walking on leash when I have no time to train.
I tried to train my pup with a clicker since he was tiny to about 5 month old. There was no progress - 0! Everything I had to offer was overpowered by environmental awards - smells, birds, etc. (He can HEEL with or without clicker in the house.) I got a chocker, used it a couple of times, threw it away. Then, back to a buckle collar. Being a tree so far worked the best+Millan's philosophy on changing your own mind set. I don't care for him walking ahead of me, he always checks back. I give him commands to change sides or slow down. I wouldn't mind trying a clicker again. But, when I hand him a treat, he looks at me, like, Eat now? Ok, quick. Aggght.

Oh, and I remembered reading Clothier, when she said that dogs just might not understand WHY they should do X. They'd do it if there was a purpose. That was a simple thing to point out, but I just never thought about showing your dog the WHY (the whyness []). In a social/environmental sense.
Just yesterday I was running with Jack, it was right after the rain. Tons of rain came out. He was his usual self - running ahead of me, not really pulling. Then a car drove buy and splashed ALL over Jack - head to toe! He sort of paused, moved back - he wasn't sure where that came form. From then on without me saying anything he run behind me - on the left side, paying close attention. He just saw WHY. It's just that some confident dogs need more adventures for you to show them why you are the "leader".
(Man, I'm starting to not like that word Leader. That makes me sound so important. "Big dog" is better. [8D])

ORIGINAL: Angelique

Ron,

Do you still need the clicker and the treats? What would happen if you stopped for a week?

What is your goal?

[]

This is a common misconception.  Once the dog knows the desired behavior, the clicker is not necessary because you would have attached a verbal cue to the finished behavior, like "heel".  But, "heel" is not a behavior, it's a chain of behaviors (walk next to me when I step off on my left foot, automatic sit when I stop, don't move if my right foot starts off, about turn, etc.)  I haven't used a clicker for "heel" in about four years for Sioux, but she heels nevertheless because she understands what it means.  Treats are never totally gone.  That would be like saying your dog is great all the time, but never gets the reward he likes.  But, you do put them on a variable schedule of reinforcment, so that they never quite know if a reward is coming or not.  That's how we get dogs that will do an obedience routine or an agility run without "bribes".  A reward is not a bribe, is not needed all the time for known behaviors, but ron is right when he says you would "front end load" a behavior at the beginning when the dog is first learning it.

You make some good points which I would like to discuss. Like Ron, I do love the mathematical breakdowns and logic...if only living beings with all of their variables could fit into this system outside of the lab more often. []

In the spirit of keeping the CM "stuff" and the clicker training (operant conditioning) areas free of debate on "when, where, how, and why", I was thinking of opening a thread in the "everything else" area of this forum.

This is not a linear discussion to me. It is multi-dimentional with many social variables.

This thread started as an inquiry about "mastering the walk", Cesar style...the OP was also interested in the use of clicker training and was directed to that area of the board. I haven't seen the OP since. Rather odd actually...

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: Angelique

Ron,

Do you still need the clicker and the treats? What would happen if you stopped for a week?

What is your goal?

[]

This is a common misconception.  Once the dog knows the desired behavior, the clicker is not necessary because you would have attached a verbal cue to the finished behavior, like "heel".  But, "heel" is not a behavior, it's a chain of behaviors (walk next to me when I step off on my left foot, automatic sit when I stop, don't move if my right foot starts off, about turn, etc.)  I haven't used a clicker for "heel" in about four years for Sioux, but she heels nevertheless because she understands what it means.  Treats are never totally gone.  That would be like saying your dog is great all the time, but never gets the reward he likes.  But, you do put them on a variable schedule of reinforcment, so that they never quite know if a reward is coming or not.  That's how we get dogs that will do an obedience routine or an agility run without "bribes".  A reward is not a bribe, is not needed all the time for known behaviors, but ron is right when he says you would "front end load" a behavior at the beginning when the dog is first learning it.

 
How come Spiritsdog's response isn't just common sense to dog owners.  Why does have to be repeated time and time again.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

A reward is not a bribe

Just like corrections are not wrong since they are not painful [], yeap i find myself repeating that over and over too

We are NOT going to do the old tit for tat thing in this thread.
 
Enough said.

Just to address the question of living in the city and changing a dog from a controlled training walk to a more free exercise walk--I change leashes. The walk to the park is on loose leash, and we're also learning "heel" right now (with a clicker), on a 4 foot leash or on the 1 foot tab leash. When we get to the place where it's okay to let him run around on the 30 foot leash, we stop, I have him sit, I switch leashes, give him the release word, and he's off. At the end of it we just to the same but in reverse and we walk back home.

I taught Marlowe all his leash skills on a flat collar and positive reinforcement. It was tough for a while with the lunging at squirrels business, as he wouldn't give up a squirrel for a treat no way no how, so we had to revise the reward structure, but it all worked out. He's actually way easier to walk than Conrad who was initially trained on a choker and then got collar smart and had to be retrained on a flat. If I'm walking the dogs with a friend, Marlowe's always the one I give to the friend to walk--Conrad can be a bit of a pain and at his size he only has to be a bit of a pain to give a dog novice trouble.