mastering the walk

I think the mistake I made a long time ago was wanting to get the dog to trust me so bad, that I over did things, over the past few years I have improved how I handle rescues. Some outgoing, some are fearful.......I guess I have learned to provide a stable and save environment for the dogs and then slowly gain their trust by being patient........and that is not my strongest side.....

ORIGINAL: dlg81

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Do you really think this is all that important so long as you already have your dogs' respect and they get exercise in other ways? 

It seems that most of the time Cesar is addressing people who don't already have their dog's respect.  I haven't seen too many episodes of the show where Cesar is dealing with people who have dogs that respect them.  If person's dogs already respect them and have no issues, why would a person bother changing things?  Cesar is just offering his philosophy.  There are lots of others to choose from.

Also, I'm not sure if excercise is the only thing Cesar is trying to accomplish on his walks.  If the walks are supposed to be a leadership excercise, then it makes sense that the dogs would have to follow rules during the excercise.  Similarly, if a dog was in a training session, wouldn't the dog be required to follow rules and do what was expected?  I guess I don't see how asking a dog to follow rules during a walk is that different from asking a dog to sit before getting treat during a training session.

[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]

ORIGINAL: glenmar

OK, I just had a lightbulb moment.  I knew, but I'd forgotten in all the shouting, that CM works with troubled dogs...sorry, can't think of another phrase for it.  I think what bothers me the most is that the edited for TV version makes it look like almost instant results AND there are still the kinder gentler ways of doing things that are being ignored.  I strongly suspect that Anne or Mic could take any of these dogs and "shape them up", but I am pretty sure it would take longer and without the dramatic turn around we see on TV.  And maybe that's my biggest objection, the "instant gratification" aspect of this.....that and the not so gentle methods that he uses.

You can se instant results but they will never be instant fixes, they can edit as much as they want, when i do it i also get instant results, even whith dogs that have never met me before (of course they dont have huge issues but for example they are pullers and in les than 3 minutes i have them walking nicely with out being afraid and enjoying the walk)

ORIGINAL: glenmar

And, I guess the bottom line and what disturbs me the most is that people don't do their danged jobs as owners and TRAIN the dog themselves and then choose a method that is probably a bit outdated because it's so high profile and touted as "the best" when the animal gets wildly out of control.

I dont think techniques are oudated or not, is only that some are newer than others but all of them can work, old does not mean wrong

ORIGINAL: glenmar
Sheba is fearful and reactive.  Had I used CM's methods I suspect she would still be fearful but perhaps not physically reactive.  I think that most of the stuff he does would have caused MORE fear, not less, and given her personality, I think she would have flat shut down with rough treatment.  So the "one size fits all" attitude, and I'm not sure if it's CM's or that of his followers, bothers me. Even with the +R behavioralist I found myself saying "I'm not comfortable with that" and HE said, fine, lets fine a method that works for Sheba AND for you.

"Suspect" is the key word on your post, but you dont really know because you didnt try it, you just "assumed" what would happen, just like so many of his clients "suspect" is not going to work and it does

There is not "one size fits all" attitude on his methods, just like snownose already said, depending on the problem is the approach he uses, he is not going to do the same with a fearful dog than with an aggressive dog, he worked with fearful dogs before and he never used force or corrections, he builted confidence

It's totally fine if you want to do something else, no problem with that, we just want you to see that the "other" methods are not wrong either, just like ice cream, it does not matter the flavor, all of them are great []

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Maybe he could.  I only wish that *I* could get into their heads and figure them out myself!  She's an absolutely wonderful girl, but she had some bad experiences in a fear stage and that's where a lot of this came from.  What I didn't know has cost her.........

He really does get into their heads and tries to teach folks how we are coming across to the dog from the dog's perspective. Most of what he focuses on is getting the owners to change how they are interacting with their dogs in order to address the human end of things.

Simple things like how we greet dogs by using the "no touch, no talk, no eye contact" in order to help put a dog at ease where most people (who are not dog nerds []) will approach a dog by looking them in the eye, reaching for them, grinning, speaking in a high-pitched voice, etc. To another human this would usually be a friendly gesture, but to most dogs this does not come across as comforting, and can actually cause a dog more stress and discomfort.

I'm sorry your dog has been through troubled times and I hope the person who worked with you was able to help the situation. My own dog was 18 months old and a fearful, unsocialised, mistrusting wreck when I found her.

I use a similar philosophy and perspective as CM (have been for almost 15 years) and she is doing great now. These dogs are some of the most difficult to work with and take time. But if you understand how they look at the world (as best we can) through a dog's eyes and a dog's mind, it can really be helpful.

It amazes me that these dogs can come back from such a messed up state at all especially with the socialization factor.

And you are right, CM does work a lot with very messed up and troubled adult dogs and has said that when starting a dog out right from a puppy, positive reinforcement based methods may be all you need with many dogs.

I have to say there is more to what CM is doing which meets the eye at first glance and he is not the only one out there who approaches things by understanding how dogs think. Many different people have added to my knowledge in this area. Myrna M. Milani, Bruce Fogle, Staney Coren, Suzanne Clothier, and the Monks of New Skete to name a few, all gave me a glimpse into this long before Cesar ever came on the scene. But, the dogs themselves have taught me more than anyone.

Strangely enough, I also learned a lot about how our attitude, demeanor, leadership, and confidence can impact an animal we are working with through the green fresh-off-the-track thoroughbred horses I turned into stable, safe urban and trail horses. A lot of what CM does has a lot of "horse sense" to it. []

Anyway, I hope things are going better these days for you and your dog. []

ORIGINAL: Angelique

I have to say there is more to what CM is doing which meets the eye at first glance and he is not the only one out there who approaches things by understanding how dogs think. Many different people have added to my knowledge in this area. Myrna M. Milani, Bruce Fogle, Staney Coren, Suzanne Clothier, and the Monks of New Skete to name a few, all gave me a glimse into this long before Cesar ever came on the scene. But, the dogs themselves have taught me more than anyone.

Assuming that Cesar Milan is an incredibly gifted and charismatic figurehead for an already established set of principles regarding dog relationships, what is/could this philosphy be called, rather than "Cesar's Way" or "CM style"?

I take it to be a comprehensive or holistic attitude with regards to socialization as well as direct behavior management.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

ORIGINAL: Angelique

I have to say there is more to what CM is doing which meets the eye at first glance and he is not the only one out there who approaches things by understanding how dogs think. Many different people have added to my knowledge in this area. Myrna M. Milani, Bruce Fogle, Staney Coren, Suzanne Clothier, and the Monks of New Skete to name a few, all gave me a glimse into this long before Cesar ever came on the scene. But, the dogs themselves have taught me more than anyone.

Assuming that Cesar Milan is an incredibly gifted and charismatic figurehead for an already established set of principles regarding dog relationships, what is/could this philosphy be called, rather than "Cesar's Way" or "CM style"?

I take it to be a comprehensive or holistic attitude with regards to socialization as well as direct behavior management.

Bruce Fogel's book is called "The Dog's Mind", Stanley Coren's book is called "How Dogs Think", Cesar's Center is called a "Dog Psychology Center"...so a big part of it is dog psychology.

But when Cesar's show first airred, I looked up "dog psychology" on the net to see who else was using this term, and practically all I could find at the time were "operant and classical conditioning" methods being applied to dogs and being called "dog psychology". Operant and classical conditioning is not dog specific and mostly focuses on the training and shaping of behaviors, rather than working more on the "cause" of behavior problems. I've seen a big shift in the use of this term to it's more appropriate (IMO) use more recently though.

Cesar is just the best common point of reference for me to discuss what I've personally found to be true and useful which combines bits of lot of different viewpoints on this topic. Wouldn't really matter to me who brought a lot of this to the forefront for discussion and learning. It's just easy to use his terminologies and concepts because they are so simple, to the point, accurate, and easy for most folks use as a starting point of the basics which are needed when living with a dog (outside of the actual "training" part of things).

The whole concept of Cesar's Way is a combination of dog psychology, dog language and communication, social skills and manners, fulfulling a dog's basic needs, and addressing the human factor as far as leadership and how our behavior effects our dog's behavior.

But, I think it's mostly just plain dog psychology for the most part. Maybe I'll do another net search and see what's out there now...[]

being patient........and that is not my strongest side

Funny, I was just thinking that many of the CM fans are "results oriented".  I tend to be more patient with dogs (although, admittedly, not always so with humans - I figure they have the gray matter and opposable thumbs, so should know better LOL).
I have often thought that our own personalities influence the way we handle our dogs, and the way we perceive the efficacy of the methods employed.  That would apply, not only to the "walk", but to other aspects of training as well.  Might be fodder for an interesting thread...

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

being patient........and that is not my strongest side

Funny, I was just thinking that many of the CM fans are "results oriented".

Dog psychology oriented. []

ORIGINAL: TinaK

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

being patient........and that is not my strongest side

Funny, I was just thinking that many of the CM fans are "results oriented".

Dog psychology oriented. []

Well then, you might just be interested in the clicker threads, too.  Learning theory, behavior modification, operant conditioning, variable reinforcement, motivation theory...dog psychology. []

Funny, I was just thinking that many of the CM fans are "results oriented".

 
 
I was not very patient even before CM rolled into town.....it has nothing to do with him....eh?

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Well then, you might just be interested in the clicker threads, too.  Learning theory, behavior modification, operant conditioning, variable reinforcement, motivation theory...dog psychology []

None of which is specific to dog psychology except the term "dog psychology" added at the end. Everything else can be generally applied and will also work on a dolphin or a chicken.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

He says that "birds fly, fish swim, dogs walk" Is that right? Many people here are of the opinion that a daily "walk out" (not just a backyard romp) is essential to a dog's well being.

And my thought was this: CM bases much of his philosophy on "wild" dogs, drawing parallels between them and our pets to understand them better,.... right? Well, in the wild territories don't overlap. The only time you would leave the territory would be to migrate to new territory.

My dog's own territory is not a geographical block like that of wolves, it is a splatter of the regular places we spend time in or get out of the car and move through. My dog's behavior is different in her own territory (scattered as it might be) than it is in unfamiliar territories. She is much more likely to walk next to or behind me, rather than ahead, when in a new place. Similarly, her pack (social group) is scattered, not living under one roof.

Thie first time I saw Ixa tear full speed across an empty sheep pen, I realized just how lame our walks are in terms of *exercise*. I think a high percentage of pulling issues begin with fit dog/unfit human.

Moreover, though, I have to admit, the whole notion of going for controlled linear walks at a steady human pace seems like a fundamentally and absurdly unnatural activity for a dog. I think human walking and dog walking are pretty much incompatible, and the fact that the dog sticks anywhere near you and doesn't pull too much is a testament to just how much dinner you are providing ...erm, I mean leadership you are providing. [8D]

I just want to say that I love this post!! 
 
Edit to add: 
Tilt - you are wasting your time! 
snownose - Cause and effect.  No one is suggesting that CM causes people to be impatient with thier animals.... but perhaps he attracts the more impatient type who wnat to see a result more quickly.... because he seems to get the result so quick on the TV.  I think other, gentler methods WOULD take longer.... (and I can appreciate why with dangerous dogs a fast result is preferable, provided it is also reliable) and of course the Edit Factor is a biggie.
 
And it seems we've gone off Perfecting the walk again..... last time anyone posted even remotely in connection with that was near the top of Page 8 by the look of it.  I think Tina and DPU raised some really good points that I'd have liked to have seen taken further but it seems that the whole thing has disintegrated into why CM is right/wrong/better/worse than anyone else.... again.  How boring.  Might as well close this section and have ONE thread with that being the topic.  It would save space and make so much more sense.  I only came here for ONE question bubbling away in my mind, and all I've managed to do is remind myself why I bowed out of the section "permanently". 

Having had the experience of seeing Sioux go off full tilt after sheep, I so agree with the theory that humans are, at best, a poor substitute for doggy personal trainers. []
A controlled walk, to the extent that dogs must walk behind the human, and not stop to sniff, is an exercise in control, not an exercise in exercise.  Not that it is always bad to be in control of your dogs, but it is not exercise (for the dog), unless you want to do it for twenty miles - even then...  When dogs play with other dogs, even for fifteen minutes, they expend enough energy to have them panting, and all the tongues lolling.  People with underexercised dogs might better consider adding a compatible dog to the household for Fido to play with, or sending Fido to day care.  Unless you have experienced the "good dog is a tired dog" feeling that goes with those solutions, you can't appreciate that the walk is just human wishful thinking when it comes to canine exercise.  Why do you think CM puts on those inline skates?  He knows it too! 

ORIGINAL: Angelique

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Well then, you might just be interested in the clicker threads, too.  Learning theory, behavior modification, operant conditioning, variable reinforcement, motivation theory...dog psychology []

None of which is specific to dog psychology except the term "dog psychology" added at the end. Everything else can be generally applied and will also work on a dolphin or a chicken.

Or a dog, or a human. []   Haven't you ever played "the training game"?

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Having had the experience of seeing Sioux go off full tilt after sheep, I so agree with the theory that humans are, at best, a poor substitute for doggy personal trainers. []
A controlled walk, to the extent that dogs must walk behind the human, and not stop to sniff, is an exercise in control, not an exercise in exercise.  Not that it is always bad to be in control of your dogs, but it is not exercise (for the dog), unless you want to do it for twenty miles - even then...  When dogs play with other dogs, even for fifteen minutes, they expend enough energy to have them panting, and all the tongues lolling.  People with underexercised dogs might better consider adding a compatible dog to the household for Fido to play with, or sending Fido to day care.  Unless you have experienced the "good dog is a tired dog" feeling that goes with those solutions, you can't appreciate that the walk is just human wishful thinking when it comes to canine exercise.  Why do you think CM puts on those inline skates?  He knows it too! 

 
I agree that has to do a lot with control, i agree too that dogs could spend more time excersicing without being tired than humans, yes, CM has roller skates and he uses them, i dont think anybody in this forum said "just walk your dog 45 minutes and the throw yourself into the couch for the rest of the day", different dogs have different levels of activity, retreivers need more excersice, huskies too, a simple walk wont work as well as with a schnauzer or a chihuahua, you have to meet also the needs of every breed
 
We are talking about the walk in this topic only, we can open another thread about how to fufill every dog needs of excersice depending on the breed, but right now is only about the walk
 
If we stick with the phylosopy of "walks at human pace dont excersice the dogs" then i will just open the backyard door and my dog can sniff as much as she wants, we wont go on walks because is a waste of time, but of course we wont do that, walks even on human pace still provide excersice AND if you add play time and mental estimulation then you are able to meet the excersice needs of your dog, IF you have a breed that needs more than others then you have to adjust the lenght of those sessions
 
Thats why CM says "excersice, discipline and affection" he does not say "walks on human pace, discipline and affection"

When we see CM on tv teaching folks how to master the walk, it's usually dogs that have a problem, or are completely out of control. IMO, he uses the walk as part of the rehabilitation.
 
I have seen him running in the mountains or rollerblading, and dogs were in front of him.