mastering the walk

ORIGINAL: Angelique

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Well then, you might just be interested in the clicker threads, too.  Learning theory, behavior modification, operant conditioning, variable reinforcement, motivation theory...dog psychology []

None of which is specific to dog psychology except the term "dog psychology" added at the end. Everything else can be generally applied and will also work on a dolphin or a chicken.

I agree, in fact...your actually stating...human psychology.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy


I just want to say that I love this post!! 

Edit to add: 
Tilt - you are wasting your time! 
snownose - Cause and effect.  No one is suggesting that CM causes people to be impatient with thier animals.... but perhaps he attracts the more impatient type who wnat to see a result more quickly.... because he seems to get the result so quick on the TV.  I think other, gentler methods WOULD take longer.... (and I can appreciate why with dangerous dogs a fast result is preferable, provided it is also reliable) and of course the Edit Factor is a biggie.

Actually I think, or should I say I know, people that like Cesar are simply looking for results that would, not...just keep using treats and one day in the far, far away future your dog just might listen. Sorry but I follow behind to many of these "trainers/behaviorist who push R+ only, clicking and treating, only to end up with dogs that drool when ever they smell treats and ignore their owners when no treats are there. And they keep hearing, "just stick with it". One of my clients "stuck with it for over 2 years, and wasn't seeing any real change in her dogs behavior, even though she worked with a well known behaviorist. I went out, showed her how to walk her dogs, change the other stuff she was doing and now she's one of my biggest fans. The statement "he attracts more impatient type" is rediculous.

And it seems we've gone off Perfecting the walk again..... last time anyone posted even remotely in connection with that was near the top of Page 8 by the look of it.  I think Tina and DPU raised some really good points that I'd have liked to have seen taken further but it seems that the whole thing has disintegrated into why CM is right/wrong/better/worse than anyone else.... again.  How boring.  Might as well close this section and have ONE thread with that being the topic.  It would save space and make so much more sense.  I only came here for ONE question bubbling away in my mind, and all I've managed to do is remind myself why I bowed out of the section "permanently". 

It turns to this because of the IMO constantly trying to prove Cesar is wrong and the R= only crowd is right. And yes...that does get boring.

Not only is this thread OT, it is also getting a tad snippy.  Can you guys self moderate so I don't need to close the thread?  I KNOW what a popular move THAT will be........

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Not only is this thread OT, it is also getting a tad snippy.  Can you guys self moderate so I don't need to close the thread?  I KNOW what a popular move THAT will be........

Ok, I'll start. As long as your walking your dog, the dog is well bebaved, your *BOTH* enjoying it, isn't THAT the perfect walk?

Yep.  We can totally agree on that! []
 
Thanks.

Ok you can close the thread now, there is nothing else to say []

  glenmar[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif] [sm=wink2.gif]

Quote from teh cesar Milan website:

"Master the walk – The walk is an extremely important ritual for a dog. It needs to take place a minimum of twice a day, for at least thirty to forty-five minute each time, so that both the dog#%92s mind and its body are given a workout. This means the dog walks next to the owner or behind him/her – not pulling ahead. If a dog is “walking” a human, the dog perceives itself as pack leader at that moment, and the human is not in control."

(Italics, mine)

http://cesarmillaninc.com/tips/glossary.php

Does this sound about right?:

The RITUAL of walking is emphasized. The theory: set the relationship with the dog through this walking ritual, instead of other directed behavior modification (sit, stay, etc), the dog gets practised at being in tune with you, your leadership is firmly established.

Which is to say that Millan sets the relationship through the walk, rather than in "training sessions" with treats/lures/whatever. This is why, within the CM world view, it is SO important to "Master the Walk."

I've been reading that Millan doesn't "train dogs", so I'm guessing that all the pack leadership is established through the walk, consistent comportment, and other relational habits that we'd call NILIF? Millan's "discipline" is coming through simple human-dog interactions, rather than set aside "training time". So we see corrections and rewards during the course of daily activities, rather than artificial behavior shaping that is expected to track back to into daily behaviors.

Am I getting it?

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

Quote from teh cesar Milan website:

"Master the walk – The walk is an extremely important ritual for a dog. It needs to take place a minimum of twice a day, for at least thirty to forty-five minute each time, so that both the dog's mind and its body are given a workout. This means the dog walks next to the owner or behind him/her – not pulling ahead. If a dog is "walking” a human, the dog perceives itself as pack leader at that moment, and the human is not in control."

(Italics, mine)

[linkhttp://cesarmillaninc.com/tips/glossary.php]http://cesarmillaninc.com/tips/glossary.php[/link]

 
Duh, why i didnt think about going there before? [sm=smack.gif]

Ixas Girl,
 
Yes, you are "getting it" very well! []

I feel like dropping on the floor myself, but I will say more... []
I know we can dig out studies on dogs and wolves that would show us contradictory results on who is leading whom and how often. What this does tells us, is that this whole frontal, non frontal leadership business is complicated - it depends on the breeding season, weather conditions, individual dog's knowledge if the area, and who knows what. One thing that stands true is that no matter where the leader is, everyones' attention is on him. If you walk to far ahead - well, it's up to you, but then you won't be paying attention to your big dog, and it's in your interest to move closer. Other thing to remember that these are already happy balanced packs. There'll be no business hiking in the woods, if you haven't figured out who the big dog is and who is calling the shots. Deciding who the boos is in the middle of the mission is a waste if energy, and a recipe for disaster for a whole pack. Once you have reached this balance - dogs' attention is naturally on you.
What will keep his attention on you is not liver or chicken, it's your relationship. Because having a good relationship leads to survival.
We have to satisfy our dog's desires and these desires might come from breed standard, personality, past experiences, etc. Once we do that, we ask a dog to satisfy ours - that's how relationships work... ie. don't jump on me I don't like it, etc.
I said it before and I'll say it again, in nature canines have a freedom to leave without confrontation, and our dogs don't. So, it may be hard for some to satisfy a dog whose desires are not up to ours: "I want to sleep - you want to run. I wan to drink coffee on the porch, you want to tear squirrels apart." If that dog could talk, he'll probably say: "We have different things we want from our lives. Sorry. This relationship is not working out".
Shoot, I forgot what I was gonna say about Millan. [8D]

P.S. I wonder how would a dog *rehabilitate* dog?

I think we're missing a pretty basic fact here: Wolves form packs in order to survive. A wolf who wanders far from his pack doens't get hunted down and beat up by the alpha for wandering off, he simply is alone, lost, and will probably not survive. We've got a slightly diferent relationship with our dogs than an alpha wolf has for his subordinates. We don't want them to wander off and die because they were stupid and didn't keep their eye on the Creature Who Guarentees My Survival. To me that just looks like apples and oranges.

ORIGINAL: TinaK

I feel like dropping on the floor myself, but I will say more... []
I know we can dig out studies on dogs and wolves that would show us contradictory results on who is leading whom and how often. What this does tells us, is that this whole frontal, non frontal leadership business is complicated - it depends on the breeding season, weather conditions, individual dog's knowledge if the area, and who knows what. One thing that stands true is that no matter where the leader is, everyones' attention is on him. If you walk to far ahead - well, it's up to you, but then you won't be paying attention to your big dog, and it's in your interest to move closer. Other thing to remember that these are already happy balanced packs. There'll be no business hiking in the woods, if you haven't figured out who the big dog is and who is calling the shots. Deciding who the boos is in the middle of the mission is a waste if energy, and a recipe for disaster for a whole pack. Once you have reached this balance - dogs' attention is naturally on you.
What will keep his attention on you is not liver or chicken, it's your relationship. Because having a good relationship leads to survival.
We have to satisfy our dog's desires and these desires might come from breed standard, personality, past experiences, etc. Once we do that, we ask a dog to satisfy ours - that's how relationships work... ie. don't jump on me I don't like it, etc.
I said it before and I'll say it again, in nature canines have a freedom to leave without confrontation, and our dogs don't. So, it may be hard for some to satisfy a dog whose desires are not up to ours: "I want to sleep - you want to run. I wan to drink coffee on the porch, you want to tear squirrels apart." If that dog could talk, he'll probably say: "We have different things we want from our lives. Sorry. This relationship is not working out".
Shoot, I forgot what I was gonna say about Millan. [8D]

P.S. I wonder how would a dog *rehabilitate* dog?

Great points in your whole post. My dog's focus is on me because as a follower within our relationship, it is natural for her to keep an eye on her leader for direction. Even during free-time she keeps and eye out to whatever direction I take, and sticks with me.

Stable dogs with good social skills who look to their human leader can help rehabilitate another dog when these dogs live with us in a human society.

CM refers to this as the "Power of the Pack" principle in rehabilitation.

CM mentions his observations both on his show and in his book, that dogs living in their natural state with little or no contact with humans, remain stable. It's the contact with humans and living within our human societies which messes them up and creates imbalance and instability.

ORIGINAL: Angelique
Myrna M. Milani, Bruce Fogle, Staney Coren, Suzanne Clothier, and the Monks of New Skete to name a few,

ORIGINAL: Angelique
Bruce Fogel's book is called "The Dog's Mind", Stanley Coren's book is called "How Dogs Think",

I forgot to say ... thanks for these references!

As this debate went on for 9 pages, how far back did the OP stop and did anyone notice, or  the age of the dog