Dog Community

A book CM fans may find interesting...

Posted : 3/19/2007 4:58:33 PM

Finished Jan Fennell's "The Dog Listener" and thought CM fans would appreciate her philosophy. Her mantra is "calm and quiet" and she empasizes a lot of NILIF techniques that she bases on wolf pack behavior. She doesn't use Cesar's more physical techniques and I wish she would have emphasized exercise more, but otherwise I thought her work complemented Cesar's nicely. Her book would be a nice read for anyone interested in leadership-based training.

While we're on the subject of suggested reading - does anyone know which books Cesar had listed at the end of "Cesar's Way"? I know he had a suggested reading list, but I forgot to copy it before I returned it to the library.

DPU

Posted : 3/19/2007 5:38:50 PM

I have the day off today. Here is the list. Follow the Field Pointer's nose.

An Encyclopedia of Dog Behavior, Roger Abrantes
The Complete Dog Book, 19th edition, AKC
Minding Animals: Awareness, Emotion and Heart, Mark Bekoff
Your Dream Dog: A Guide to Choosing the Right Breed for You, Bash Dibra
The Dog's Mind: Understanding Your Dog's Behavior, Bruce Fogle
Wild Minds: What Animals Really Think, Marc Hauser
If You Tame Me: Understanding Our Connection with Animals, Leslie Irvine
The Other End of the Leash: Why We Do What We do Around Dogs, Patricia McConnell
How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend, Monks of New Skete
Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog: The Classic Study, John Paul Scott
Dog Psychology: The Basics of Dog Training, Leon Whitney

spiritdogs

Posted : 3/19/2007 5:47:56 PM

I read Jan Fennell's book and was impressed by some of it - reread it a while back because Mic was interested in the Amichien bonding, and uses it with his working dogs.
I took some of it to heart, but I guess I'm also one of those who is not willing to be too reliant on the wolf pack model, because, while I think dogs are very social animals, and capable of some pack behavior, I think that, through breeding and domestication, we have neotenized them significantly. I no longer think in terms of a wolf - I think in terms of a dog with some wolf behavior left over from its early history. Sort of the same way I would not characterize present day homo sapiens sapiens as having the quite same social structure as homo sapiens archaic.

TinaK

Posted : 3/19/2007 8:56:29 PM

I read "The Dog Listener", and it does look like her and C.Millan would get along. But, compared to CM her methods sounds a bit too scientific for me: Before feeding your dog, take a cracker and bite it, then put it back in his plate, let him see that you ate a bit of it, then the dog will start seeing you as a leader. I tried playing these actions in my head and went "Huh?" CM's leadership style seems much simpler, just like it should be - natural, more organic. Basically, doesn't she and CM find that dog's primary motivator is being a part of the pack? And, the worst punishment is to be excluded?

TinaK

Posted : 3/19/2007 9:11:24 PM

Also, I wondered about her 'suspending the walk' idea, where if your dog pulls, you're supposed to stop or take penalty yards. Then, if the dog never stops pulling you suspend walk privileges and return home. In her book she mentioned St.Bernard who apparently didn't get walked in days because he refused to walk nicely... (It all worked out for him in the end. [

])
As you probably know from my constant moaning, my dog pulls like a crazy horse. So, I asked a while ago whether or not this technique can be effective. The consensus was that a dog would not connect going home with the act of pulling, which sounds reasonable.
Anyway, a few people in other forums are raving about the success in training their doggies using her techniques.

jenhuedepohl

Posted : 3/20/2007 1:01:17 PM

Before feeding your dog, take a cracker and bite it, then put it back in his plate, let him see that you ate a bit of it, then the dog will start seeing you as a leader.

I thought that was kind of flakey, too. So, of course, I tried it just to see what would happen! It did alter her behavior and I was quite surprised! Normally, I ask her to lie down, place the bowl on the floor about 5 feet away, wait anywhere from 5-30 seconds then release her to eat. She usually dives in without a backward glance.

When I did the Fennell technique, I ate the cracker first then did the normal routine. Only this time, instead of diving in, Lucy stopped at her dish and looked back. I had to "release" her again before she would eat.

I have no idea if she would still do that if I did the cracker-eating thing before every meal. She'd probably get used to it just like her current routine. I was completely surprised that it made a noticable difference!

And Thanks for that list DPU!

Michael H

Posted : 3/21/2007 10:05:04 PM

ORIGINAL: DPU

How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend, Monks of New Skete

I don't think I'll ever read this one. Don't they talk about "how hard do you hit the dog?" in it? Suzanne Clothier quotes that line in her book "Bones Would Rain From the Sky" on her chapter on animal cruelty. That book is also from 1978, and I think spiritdogs said that the Monks of New Skete have since changed their training style to positive reinforcement. I think.

Angelique

Posted : 3/21/2007 10:28:01 PM

ORIGINAL: nocturnal76

ORIGINAL: DPU

How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend, Monks of New Skete

I don't think I'll ever read this one. Don't they talk about "how hard do you hit the dog?" in it? Suzanne Clothier quotes that line in her book "Bones Would Rain From the Sky" on her chapter on animal cruelty. That book is also from 1978, and I think spiritdogs said that the Monks of New Skete have since changed their training style to positive reinforcement. I think.

I don't even know where to start with this post. [8D]

Angelique

Posted : 3/21/2007 10:36:07 PM

I have only skimmed Jan's book, but didn't buy it. I have read what others have said about it and have read the reviews. So I can't comment too far...

Maybe to some she sounds a bit "flakey" because we here are mostly "dog nerds" and are at a different point on the learning curve. But there are many "newbies" who need some specific steps, even if it is a "magic feather" in order to give themselves confidence and establish leadership with their dogs so that any "training" methods they decide to implement have a greater chance of success.

I have not heard any "frightening" reviews over the book, so it does not sound to me to be anything radical or controversial.

I will try to read it in order to give an accurate review.

spiritdogs

Posted : 3/21/2007 10:57:42 PM

Just for comparison, here are the APDT's recommendations (top ten books for pet dog owners - they also have a top ten list for trainers)
The Other End of the Leash - Patricia McConnell
The Power of Positive Dog Training - Pat Miller
After You Get Your Puppy - Ian Dunbar
Before You Get Your Puppy - Ian Dunbar
Don't Shoot the Dog - Karen Pryor
Positive Perspectives: Love Your Dog, Train Your Dog - Pat Miller
How to Teach a New Dog Old Tricks - Ian Dunbar
On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals - Turid Rugaas
Bones Would Rain From the Sky - Suzanne Clothier
Dogs Are From Neptune - Jean Donaldson

TinaK

Posted : 3/21/2007 11:33:37 PM

ORIGINAL: nocturnal76

ORIGINAL: DPU

How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend, Monks of New Skete

I don't think I'll ever read this one. Don't they talk about "how hard do you hit the dog?" in it? Suzanne Clothier quotes that line in her book "Bones Would Rain From the Sky" on her chapter on animal cruelty. That book is also from 1978, and I think spiritdogs said that the Monks of New Skete have since changed their training style to positive reinforcement. I think.

Ammm, no. They didn't change to "positive reinforcement". You should read the book, It's good. [

]

jenhuedepohl

Posted : 3/22/2007 7:35:23 AM

How'd this get so off track? I was just trying to recommend a book that didn't say leadership techniques were abusive and 20 years out of date.

Angelique

Posted : 3/22/2007 11:24:37 AM

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

How'd this get so off track? I was just trying to recommend a book that didn't say leadership techniques were abusive and 20 years out of date.

Ha-ha Jen! In order to answer the "how", one must only look to the "who" and "why"...[

]

Too funny! [

]

Michael H

Posted : 3/22/2007 1:58:49 PM

ORIGINAL: TinaK

ORIGINAL: nocturnal76

ORIGINAL: DPU

How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend, Monks of New Skete

I don't think I'll ever read this one. Don't they talk about "how hard do you hit the dog?" in it? Suzanne Clothier quotes that line in her book "Bones Would Rain From the Sky" on her chapter on animal cruelty. That book is also from 1978, and I think spiritdogs said that the Monks of New Skete have since changed their training style to positive reinforcement. I think.

Ammm, no. They didn't change to "positive reinforcement". You should read the book, It's good. []

I did say "I think" twice. I could have sworn that spiritdogs said something like that about the Monks. That's why I put her name in bold so she would comment on it. I wasn't stating it that it was a fact. And I did say that I didn't read it. But to me, a book from 1978 has to be a little outdated when it comes to dog training. I mean, the dog industry is ever changing as you all know... That's all I meant by that.

luvmyswissy

Posted : 3/22/2007 4:12:23 PM

The Monks revised and re-edited "how to be your dogs best friend" in 2002. They removed Alpha rolling and scruffing becasue like any good trainer you learn and grow over time and if your open minded you expand in your theories. They are not positive but have a flavor of postive reinforcement in there new addition. It's worth the read.