A book CM fans may find interesting...

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

The Monks revised and re-edited "how to be your dogs best friend" in 2002.  They removed Alpha rolling and scruffing becasue like any good trainer you learn and grow over time and if your open minded your expand in your theories.  They are not positive but have a flavor of postive reinforcement in there new addition.  It's worth the read.

 
Ah-hah!  So I was half-right then!  I thought I was going crazy there for a moment.  Thanks for posting this. 

ORIGINAL: nocturnal76

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

The Monks revised and re-edited "how to be your dogs best friend" in 2002.  They removed Alpha rolling and scruffing becasue like any good trainer you learn and grow over time and if your open minded your expand in your theories.  They are not positive but have a flavor of postive reinforcement in there new addition.  It's worth the read.

Ah-hah!  So I was half-right then!  I thought I was going crazy there for a moment.  Thanks for posting this. 

Or you could say...you where half wrong. I find it interesting when some one jumps up and down almost screaming I WOULDN'T READ THAT!!! then how do you educate yourself about things, other than just taking someone elses word for something. Also...as much as some here want to humanize dogs and their *feeling*...they're still dogs, their still primal, and all the wishes that are fishes in the sea will never change that.

I, for one, never scream that I won't read something.  I may borrow, instead of buy, those that I don't think would fit in my permanent library, but I have read most of the suggested books (thanks for the list, DPU) and have also read "Cesar's Way".  I've read Koehler, too, but that doesn'e mean I'd train my dogs that way.  I think that the more you read, and try, the better educated you are, and that's not a bad thing.

Well, speaking of the Monks of New Skete...looks like they have a show (or special) of their own coming up on Animal Planet called "Devine Canine". So, people can watch and judge for themselves. []

I posted a new thread about it in the "Everything Else" area of the training forum.

Koehler? Well, here is an area you and I can agree on. Koehler was a "Positive Only" extremist. I studied with one of these closed minded guys. However, in this case the extremism was positive punishment. Ew! []

ORIGINAL: nocturnal76

ORIGINAL: DPU

How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend, Monks of New Skete

I don't think I'll ever read this one.  Don't they talk about "how hard do you hit the dog?" in it?  Suzanne Clothier quotes that line in her book "Bones Would Rain From the Sky" on her chapter on animal cruelty.  That book is also from 1978, and I think spiritdogs said that the Monks of New Skete have since changed their training style to positive reinforcement.  I think. 

I was not talking about you spiritdog, I was refering to this post.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

Or you could say...you where half wrong. I find it interesting when some one jumps up and down almost screaming I WOULDN'T READ THAT!!! then how do you educate yourself about things, other than just taking someone elses word for something. Also...as much as some here want to humanize dogs and their *feeling*...they're still dogs, their still primal, and all the wishes that are fishes in the sea will never change that.

 
I might read it.  I wasn't jumping up and down in excitement.  I have read quite a few books since I got into dog training last August.  And JFYI it was Cesar Millan who inspired me to do so.  I am pretty open to most books.  It was the sole fact that the book was written in 1978 just made me wonder a little...  A lot can change since then.  I have a number of books I'll be reading before I ever get to this one. 

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

How'd this get so off track? I was just trying to recommend a book that didn't say leadership techniques were abusive and 20 years out of date.

 
I can comment, but it was a long time ago so don't quote me....
 
Firstly, the gesture eating:  I don't recall it being so "flaky" as that - the technique described in the earlier post did sound a bit silly.  I don't remember it being explained like that at all, but I could be wrong.  I *do* remember that it emphasised that the process should be matter of fact, involving the whole household if possible and it was important not to tease the dog.  That description really doesn't fit in with those at all, so maybe I need to get hold of it and re-read it.....
 
Secondly, the suspending the walk.  Not sure if you mean that she recommended not walking at all while you "bond" or suspending the walk if the dog misbehaved, but I've done both.  I did give her method a try, the latter I had tried already with some success, but the former I was VERY skeptical about.  It worked!  I have since read other things that explained about stress hormones and what not and I am now sure that, while suspending the walk was a good thing for us, it was not necessarily for the reasons she describes.... perhaps it works on a number of levels, so that she is not wrong, but that there is more to it than she explains in the book?  Anyway, it worked.
 
I was skeptical about the whole thing really, especially because she flashes the D-word round quite a lot.... but I was impressed because while she believes many if not all problems relate back to the "pack structure", her way of taking back the reins was so..... passive?  Non violent and non threatening, no conflict, no scruffing or pinning, no rolling, no taking the food dish away, no staring out, no shouting or smacking or punitive devices....  And her emphasis on calm was an epiphany for me.  Those were the things that stuck in my mind the most.
 
If I have a personality flaw (and I am sure I have several) it is my tendancy to over-analyse and I did find the book made me do that A LOT.  Having said that, several books have had that effect on me, so I think the fault is with me there, not the book or the method.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

And her emphasis on calm was an epiphany for me.  Those were the things that stuck in my mind the most.

 
How weird, i know a dude that works with dogs that does the same, his emphasis on calm is huge also, and the way you describe it is how he works, mmm interesting []

I love reading the responses on this thread because it really shows how differently people can interpet the same books and training methods. Some people, like me, immediately saw the similaries between CM & Fennell. The emphasis on leadership, calmness and dogs walking behind.

Other people point out the differences. Like CM's use of physical techniques, but those techniques are not what I "get" from CM. Again, it's the calm assertive leadership thing that works for me - same as Fennell.

I mainly posted this book recommendation here, because I was afraid that any book advocating leadship techniques would get blasted in the other training/behavior sections. I read this book right after I read Culture Clash - and there was definitely a clash in theories going on there! I had to force myself to finish that thing. I loved how it emphasized that dogs have an instictive prey drive that needed to be fullfilled (tug being the game of choice) but the author flat out denied any instinctive pack/social needs which really rubbed me the wrong way.

If we want to continue the discussion. Has anyone read "Animals in Translation" by Temple Grandin? Fabulous book! I'm going to reread it and take notes. There was WAY too much info to really assimilate all at once. But she really did a good job at pointing out the many, MANY ways animals learn, think and behave. She talked about how everything was about Skinner when she first started studying animal behavior and she always felt there was much more to it than that. Grandin's autism and how she believes autism is similar to how animals think is fascinating.

For me, it was the similarities to Fennell that drew me to CM in the first place.... and then the apparent differences that made me draw back again.  I find that where there are differences, it pokes holes in the philosophy and it niggles me.... I wonder: who is right and who is wrong?  Not in the method, but in the ideas and "facts" supporting it. 
 
I loved Grandins book.  I didn't agree with every word mind you but I found it utterly utterly fascinating.
 

I loved Grandins book.  I didn't agree with every word mind you but I found it utterly utterly fascinating.

Oh yeah - there were a few spots where I said "mmm... I don't think so." But the info about how the brain works and has evolved and how the brain is programmed to learn in different ways. She filled in a lot of the gaps that I found in other behavior books that focused primarily on operant conditioning. Plus, her observations of livestock really hit home with me, since I grew up working with cattle and hogs.

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

I loved Grandins book.  I didn't agree with every word mind you but I found it utterly utterly fascinating.

Oh yeah - there were a few spots where I said "mmm... I don't think so." But the info about how the brain works and has evolved and how the brain is programmed to learn in different ways. She filled in a lot of the gaps that I found in other behavior books that focused primarily on operant conditioning. Plus, her observations of livestock really hit home with me, since I grew up working with cattle and hogs.

 
I'm definately going to get this book. I saw a special about her and some of her philosophies. She shared some very interesting points of view in the special.
 
And yes, I also don't have to agree with everything someone says to glean tidbits of knowledge and add them to my own hilosophical "toolbox". []

Besides Fenell and McConnell, who else would be good to read, for CM enthusiasts? Particular selections from Cesar's Way that DPU posted?

ORIGINAL: DPU
An Encyclopedia of Dog Behavior, Roger Abrantes
The Complete Dog Book, 19th edition, AKC
Minding Animals: Awareness, Emotion and Heart, Mark Bekoff
Your Dream Dog: A Guide to Choosing the Right Breed for You, Bash Dibra
The Dog's Mind: Understanding Your Dog's Behavior, Bruce Fogle
Wild Minds: What Animals Really Think, Marc Hauser
If You Tame Me: Understanding Our Connection with Animals, Leslie Irvine
The Other End of the Leash: Why We Do What We do Around Dogs, Patricia McConnell
How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend, Monks of New Skete
Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog: The Classic Study, John Paul Scott
Dog Psychology: The Basics of Dog Training, Leon Whitney

jen, thanks for putting the Fennell and Grandin titles out there. Grandin's been an interest for me for some time, I've finally ordered "Translations ..."! Has anyone read her "Thinking in Pictures ...."?