A Problem with the I Collar

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: Angelique

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Anyone who would like to try it can find more info about how to do it on the clicker section.  I'll start a thread there, rather than hijack this one.

Okay, I've been waiting there for hours and I'm running out of smokes and getting cranky! []

  You did not like my thorough and detail description?

 
Yes I did. I'm getting to appreciate the sharing of your personal experiences and journey in working with your pack more and more. If you get my drift...[]

ORIGINAL: PACleader

So your going to (if you payed attention to my post) take a A-Bulldog you've never met or worked with, that has a high prey drive and use a clicker and treats to make him/her behave around other dogs. Right? I can't wait to see it.

I absolutely can, have, and will....I have a new American Bulldog coming in on Tuesday evening around 6:30ish (eastern time).  He is handler/dog aggressive and we hope he has tons of drive.  If not we will be working to increase to the highest level we can acheive.  I assume leash and flat collar are not out of the question.....He has never worked with a clicker before (as far as I know) so it will probably take a few sessions...so feel free to tune in every Tuesday at 6:30pm for the next few weeks.

He is handler/dog aggressive and we hope he has tons of drive.

Ok? I thought that sounded a little odd, then I thought it sounded even odder when it was followed by this?

If not we will be working to increase to the highest level we can acheive.

If the dog is already "handler/dog aggressive" and the goal is the change that. Why on earth would you "increase his drive to the highest level"? What is the goal for this dog? I thought it was to get the dog to walk nicely with you around other animals using...a clicker and treats. Oh and just to be clear...that means no leash corrections of any kind. Ok...I'm ready...lets see it.

I'll believe it when i see it. Oh...and if you've already done it, where's that footage? And tune in where?

Good tip...keep in mind the "P" when applying it

Of course, we always use the "P", at least I do.  That's really the ONLY thing they teach volunteers about walking.  Sometimes it's moot though b/c the shelter dogs can be strays that have never walked on a leash and they criss-cross and circle like nobody's business.  Personally, I think our shelter should have done more leash training with the volunteers.  I know that a slip lead goes behind the ears and not down lower on the neck, but most of the others don't.  We're talking about 8 year old girls who begged their mom for a dog and instead get to volunteer.  They can't be expected to learn these things on their own and they don't know better.  The shelter doesn't even teach what to do with a dog that pulls, so consequently ALL the dogs pull because all the volunteers but myself and my husband allow them to pull and they think that pulling or having the lead taught is how walking is done.  The leads they provide are too long in my opinion.  I bought my own slip lead that I take along and use on every dog I walk.  How can we attempt to control and train a 100+ pound dog that was a stray and is pulling at the end of a 6 foot lead?  Yeah right!

If the dog is already "handler/dog aggressive" and the goal is the change that. Why on earth would you "increase his drive to the highest level"?

Although I have only spoken with this person on the phone, my impression is that they want this dog to be a sport dog (PSA I think), and so that will require us to increase and control his drives.

 I thought it was to get the dog to walk nicely with you around other animals using...a clicker and treats.

That was your goal (what you wanted to see) and I will demonstrate that it can be done...

 no leash corrections of any kind

You will be able to see clearly that no corrections will be used.  We would never correct a beginner sport dog anyway as this hinders drive...instead we want to focus that drive (currently being directed at other dogs/handler and direct it towards a decoy).

Oh...and if you've already done it, where's that footage?

I have never had a need to record it before...I thought everyone knew it was possible..and pretty easy for that matter...

And tune in where?

[linkhttp://www.petathleticclub.com]www.petathleticclub.com[/link] go to "Visit Your Dog" where it says "click this link"

That should link you to 10 cams....This training session will probably take place on cams 4 & 5...if that room is being used I will give you access to the training room cams and they will be 13-16.  This dogs first session is currently scheduled for Tuesday night at 6:30 (Eastern)

I am interested in talking about the I-collar or walking issues but I have no interest in this PSA conversation.  Maybe another thread?

ORIGINAL: PACleader

If the dog is already "handler/dog aggressive" and the goal is the change that. Why on earth would you "increase his drive to the highest level"?

Although I have only spoken with this person on the phone, my impression is that they want this dog to be a sport dog (PSA I think), and so that will require us to increase and control his drives.

Here...is what I asked. ***I like to see someone take a 2 yr old American Bulldog who has some aggression issues, use a clicker to teach that to walk nicely along with other dogs.*** I didn't say anything about training a dog to be a "sport dog".***

 I thought it was to get the dog to walk nicely with you around other animals using...a clicker and treats.

That was your goal (what you wanted to see) and I will demonstrate that it can be done...

No...it wasn't "my goal". The claim has been made over and over that clicker training can be used on all dog in all situations. I challenge that. So...you show me footage of a dog that is a highly dog aggressive dog, and that you...or anyone using only a clicker and treats can get a dog to walk nicely with you around other dogs. Lets see it.

 no leash corrections of any kind

You will be able to see clearly that no corrections will be used.  We would never correct a beginner sport dog anyway as this hinders drive...instead we want to focus that drive (currently being directed at other dogs/handler and direct it towards a decoy).

Again, if you'd read my post, you see your not even on the same topic.

Oh...and if you've already done it, where's that footage?

I have never had a need to record it before...I thought everyone knew it was possible..and pretty easy for that matter...

So...lets see it.

And tune in where?

[linkhttp://www.petathleticclub.com] www.petathleticclub.com[/link] go to "Visit Your Dog" where it says "click this link"

That should link you to 10 cams....This training session will probably take place on cams 4 & 5...if that room is being used I will give you access to the training room cams and they will be 13-16.  This dogs first session is currently scheduled for Tuesday night at 6:30 (Eastern)

That doesn't do it for me sense we're not talking about the same thing. I'm not interested in watching you train a dog for a sport. I'm only enterested in the subject at hand. Now, can that be any more clear.

ORIGINAL: DPU

I am interested in talking about the I-collar or walking issues but I have no interest in this PSA conversation.  Maybe another thread?

 
Yes, this is going on in two threads now and Personal Champ's warnings are not being respected.
 
On Topic:
 
DPU,
 
How do people react to the I-collar? Also, I was wondering about how easy it snags on things and if they make them big enough for the danes, in your opinion.
 
 

ORIGINAL: Angelique

ORIGINAL: DPU

I am interested in talking about the I-collar or walking issues but I have no interest in this PSA conversation.  Maybe another thread?

Yes, this is going on in two threads now and Personal Champ's warnings are not being respected.

On Topic:

I'm sorry...who started this thread? And I am not disrespecting PC's warnings, I'm asking for proof about claims that are being made here. You have a problem with me, or that...Ang?

ETA My thought on the collar is...it would just make sense to have it so the dogs could be walked on both sides. Doesn't that make sense?

I am going to just what you ask.  Train a high drive, handler/dog aggressive American Beulldog using a clicker, to walk nicely by my side with other dogs around. 
 
You can pick it a part all you want...still doesn't change the fact that it can be done....

ORIGINAL: PACleader

I am going to just what you ask.  Train a high drive, handler/dog aggressive American Beulldog using a clicker, to walk nicely by my side with other dogs around. 

You can pick it a part all you want...still doesn't change the fact that it can be done....

Why would I pick it apart??? It's what I want to see!!! You do it and I'll praise you for it, not pick you apart for it. You misunderstand my goal here, which is to be proved wrong. I have no problem with that. That's a fact.

I think the collar is a descent product for what it is...I assume that the next version will allow for the flexibility for use on both sides.  Or atleast the ability to purchase one for the right or left.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ETA My thought on the collar is...it would just make sense to have it so the dogs could be walked on both sides. Doesn't that make sense?

 
Definately. I don't have one myself, but looking at the pictures, it doesn't seem like it would have been very difficult to have made it reversable by redesigning the nylon slip portion so it could be removed and adjusted for either side.

The collar comes in 3 sizes, SML.  Drizzle is modeling the large and as you can see from the pic it fits snuggly with about 1 more inch to loosen (see to flap to right of buckle) and it had about 2” of slack for the nylon choker.   Although you can not see it, the collar has 3 braces, 1 is permanently attached while the other 2 move freely on the collar.  The 2 have a tendency to wander about as the dog moves. 
 
I guess to make this for right sided use and preserve the “P” dress, the nylon choker needs to go on the other side of the permanent brace.  Remember CM says to keep the dog close to you and slightly behind so the leash would be slightly angled to your body.
 
There was no public reaction to the collar.  Marvin wore a medium size.  By the way, the medium collar had a size tag while the large did not.  Plus the white label and trade mark sits on top of the permanent brace and is clearly visable.  I found that Marvin quickly learned his boundaries.  The big test was when I walked away from the area and out of Marvin#%92s view.  Marvin continues to have a tissy fit but he did not pull.  Remember, the ladies handling Marvin are retired and are in their 60#%92s.
 
Whats different about this collar versus the other no pull harnesses is that Marvin can not get out of it.  Although he was able to unbuckle the snaps, the nylon choke stays intact.  For the no pull harnesses like Sensation, Marvin and other dogs just have to lay down or roll over and then they find they can slip their legs out.  Once they learn this, the harness becomes useless at the dog showings.

ORIGINAL: PACleader
[linkhttp://www.petathleticclub.com]www.petathleticclub.com[/link] go to "Visit Your Dog" where it says "click this link"

That should link you to 10 cams....This training session will probably take place on cams 4 & 5...if that room is being used I will give you access to the training room cams and they will be 13-16. This dogs first session is currently scheduled for Tuesday night at 6:30 (Eastern)

I'll try to tune in too. [] Cool.

Mic, what about those of use who might have to miss Tuesday?  I have Beekeeping School that night.  Will the video still be available on Wed AM?