A Problem with the I Collar

Eh, Jaime, nothing I'm sure that you haven't run into.  This particular section is a bit "unfriendly" to us outsiders.  Especially those of us with the red ink. [] Sufficive to say that if some of the cracks made yesterday in a thread had been made against ANYONE else on this forum, I would have edited the crap right out of the thread and then shut it down.  But, I'm a tough old broad with a hide like a rhino....so let 'er rip....I can take it!  Oh, you should see the PMs I've gotten today!  Wahoooooo!

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Eh, Jaime, nothing I'm sure that you haven't run into.  This particular section is a bit "unfriendly" to us outsiders.  Especially those of us with the red ink. [] Sufficive to say that if some of the cracks made yesterday in a thread had been made against ANYONE else on this forum, I would have edited the crap right out of the thread and then shut it down.  But, I'm a tough old broad with a hide like a rhino....so let 'er rip....I can take it!  Oh, you should see the PMs I've gotten today!  Wahoooooo!

That sounds a wee bit like...all the people that like Cesar are the trouble makers here and the "outsiders" as you say are the nice guys. I noticed plenty of "attacks", snide and rude remarks from *the others* (outsiders) in this section as well. IMO 

Both of you behave...I still have all the tools...
There is a conversation in play regarding a training item, stick to the topic and leave the "sides" behind you

Well, you DID ask a question!  []
 
Again, maybe I don't understand why one would need to use this particular tool .  Yes, as Jaime said, perhaps with a new to the pack foster or whatever who didn't have the proper manners and hadn't learned that I am the leader......but, if one is living with a group of dogs and still needing to use those types of tools on a regular basis, or even on a "once in awhile" basis, it would seem like something is getting missed.  And I'd not be likely to try to walk TWO at the same time who didn't know my rules.  But, maybe I'm over simplifying based on knowing what my limits are.  I CAN take all six of mine out in the woods off lead.  I can, but I prefer not to...I'd rather take two walks with three at a time.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Again, maybe I don't understand why one would need to use this particular tool . 

Let me introduce you to Marvin at a foster dog showings at Petsmart who is being handled by someone other than myself.

But, maybe I'm over simplifying based on knowing what my limits are.

BINGO!!! Remember, it's about the dog and the person handling the dog, not in either of our "situations" of course that is really not how this "training tool" was presented to us...it was presented with a use in reference to it's manufacturing and in the way it would not be "effective" for use in a situation concurrent with how CM would walk multiple dogs...again, I don't believe this "tool" was designed for use in walking multiple dogs.
 
 As a professional dog walker, Mudpuppy if you've used such a "tool" what would be your opinion of the multi dog use?

OK, DPU gave an example of when might come in handy.  I can understand THAT.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Again, maybe I don't understand why one would need to use this particular tool . 

You dont need to, just like people does not really need prongs, gentle leaders, halties, etc, etc, etc, they help people that are not experienced yet on walking dogs without issues on those walks

This particular leash keeps the leash at the top of the neck like in the dog shows, that way the dog does not help himself with his shoulders if he wants to pull = less pulling

ORIGINAL: espencer

This particular leash keeps the leash at the top of the neck like in the dog shows, that way the dog does not help himself with his shoulders if he wants to pull = less pulling

 
How did I not see that earlier when "I" looked at this "tool"
 
Of course as a person who does show, I know that keeping the collar high on the neck gives you control over the head which in turn gives you more control over the dog...the pulling thing, I don't know if I ever thought about that as some dogs still pull even with the collar up high

ORIGINAL: amstaffy

How did I not see that earlier when "I" looked at this "tool"

Of course as a person who does show, I know that keeping the collar high on the neck gives you control over the head which in turn gives you more control over the dog...the pulling thing, I don't know if I ever thought about that as some dogs still pull even with the collar up high

Thats why i said less pulling, i did not say not pulling at all [], you have more control indeed as you said

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: dogslife
How is I Collar supposed to work?  Illusion implies that it fools the dog somehow.

No, he simply named it after his wife. The collar works great, my only problem with it was it only works on one side, and for someone like Cesar who works with people who walk multiple dogs, this IMO was a big over site and should be corrected.

I am confused about the issue here with the I-Collar.  I have now used it for the 3rd time at the foster dog showing at Petsmart and it lives up to its claim.  This time I was more conscious of it operation pertaining to the right vs left sided walkers. 
 
I was taught the right dress of the choker collar was to face the dog and shape the collar into a 'P'.  The dog walking on the right or left side of you did not matter but the dog should walk on the left side.  In the first photo the nylon choker is dressed accordingly.  In reading the OP's comment, I inverted or did an inside outside of the collar, the 2nd pictures.  In dressing the dog, this produces a backward 'P'.
 
I use the collar in a specific situation and it is used on Marvin (in my sig).  Marvin is a greater tester of those speciality harness.  In the I-Collar there is only one flaw that I have noticed.  The buckles that are used for fitting open from the top down.  Marvin was able to scratch or paw the harness and open the buckles.  When I move the buckles to the other side, I loose the main support on top of the dogs neck. 
 
My goal in looking at different "no pull” harnesses was to eliminate the choker chains on dog at the dog showings.  Handlers just don't know how to use them and were choking them.  At the dog showing this past weekend, all except one dog had a speciality harness on.  I still have to convince the lone one handler.
 
BTW, I think that sitting is a very unnatural position for a Great Dane so I rarely put them in a sit position.  Three cheers for Drizzle for being such a patient model.

ORIGINAL: dogslife

How is I Collar supposed to work?  Illusion implies that it fools the dog somehow. 

Easy walk harness has been good for my Sibe huskies that have innate drive to pull. 

Maybe some younger people don't have issue with training a puller, but when you get older and have arthritis or any other old age issues...you need a little extra with those pups with extra pulling drive.  It is probably a big reason elderly love to have smaller breeds.  Easier to handle.

Illusion just refers to CM's wife, after whom the collar is named.  But, now that you mention it, it does seem to provide an illusion but not to the dog - to the human.  Humans are convinced that they aren't using a choke...but, as I see it, they are doing just that.  The collar seems to place the choker part right up high on the dog's neck, which is the location where it causes the most stricture, hence the most pain. 
I don't think all elderly are ready to give up the large breeds they own, and have had elders who walk their dogs on a variety of equipment.  I have a 75+ year old man, as well as two morbidly obese clients walking Danes on a Gentle Leader.  Another woman has her Dane in a prong collar because he does not have any fear or aggression issues.  I have clients who use Easy Walks.  The common denominator is that the owner needs to assess the dog, their own ability to handle the dog (if a squirrel runs by, etc.), and the level of training they wish to commit to.  None of my students use the Illusion, nor do I think it's necessary for most dogs.  But, if you like it, at least understand its action, and why it works, and thus make sure it is appropriate for you and your dog.

DPU,
 Great pics and thanks for the visual!!! I had never seen this collar or know what it should be used for until this thread...
 
Anyway, heres my thoughts....any time you use a "choke" collar be it nylon(my personal choice) or chain there is ONLY one correct way to put it on a dog and that is the "P" it should NEVER resemble a "q" to get the desired quick pull and release which is now in my mind as to WHY this collar can only be used/dressed for the dog to be walked on the left side...another thought, when training dogs for obedience as well as confirmation, agility, rally the og is always on the left so in general thoughts this is a "training aide" and should not be used in multiple dog walking IMO...
 
I've typed and erased and retyped several things but I just can't seem to get the right wording without sounding attacking regarding the OP and training so I'll just leave it at this

A couple quotes from the instruction manual that came with the collar and leash.

"Once it is properly fitted, The Illusion Dog Training Collar is used for training and control..."

"The Illusion Dog Training Collar is designed to function best when used while walking with your dog on your left, holding the leash in your left hand, as taught in dog training classes."

"Cesar believes that dogs should be at your side or slightly behind you during a walk, keeping you in the role of pack leader.  If you need to make a correction, simply give a firm and quick pull up on the leash to correct.

"It is recommended that you use this collar only when training or walking your dog."

Agility on the left side?  My side or the dog side?  The agility equipment is usually set up around the perimeter of the work area.  It is therefore natural that the handler be in the inner part or the right side.  Was I trained wrong?

I'd like to give this collar a try on a few dogs I have in mind, but it looks like it requires a lot of adjustment to be fitted just right?  That's the problem with using special collars at the shelter, I've got a new dog every 20 minutes, everything from a Min Pin puppy to a Saint Bernard adult.  Most of the time they are so excited to get out of the kennel, you have to be able to reach in the door while holding it shut with one hand and lassoing the dog with the other hand (I try to get them without having to go into the kennel, as it gets them even more hyper and anxious and some are protective of their kennel since it's the only space/thing that belongs to THEM).  I've noticed that at the shelter, we have MAJOR problems with dogs pulling, people not knowing how to walk a dog in the first place, and people not knowing how to use even the simplest of leads and collars.  I think it bothers the behaviorist, but after all its a non-profit shelter and their main concern is just getting each dog OUT a few times a day.  Walking the dog properly is a luxury, but unfortunately neglecting leash manners seems to be making certain dogs even more unadoptable.  I really don't mind buying my own collars or halters to try, but it seems like the adjustments would eat up my time and it wouldn't be very effective since the next person taking the dog out is going to throw on the same old slip lead backwards way down to the dog's shoulders and let the dog walk them.  Frustrating *sigh*.