Cultural Differences

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: sillysally

If I had an old sock rather than a tug toy Jack would ingest it.  Socks are rather unsafe toys for dogs like labs.

Ok, change the example to whatever fits your dog  

[sm=lol.gif]  Jack's most favorite toy in the world is a cloth frisbee I get free from the vet. 

Sorry, I just don't think that the act of buying a dog toys has anything to do with whether or not they have manners.  My aunt has a bratty maltise.  She is given everything she wants a silver plater-from lap rights to food off of the plate.  She is allowed to growl viciously at anyone who comes within a couple of feet of her treat or toy.  My aunt thinks this is cute.  She is given all the attention she wants right NOW.  However, I know that my aunt actually SPENDS less than I do on dog stuff, even when I only had one dog.  Yet in my house (while my dogs are not perfect) we practice NILIF, they have to work for many of their meals, and we work on manners daily.  They can sit right next to me in the car while I'm eating and not be in my face, know better than to demand attention, and I have never had either one so much as lift a lip at me if I've had to remove somthing from their mouths, and most of the time I can get what I want by telling them to "drop it."

I guess if we are going to say that spending lots of money = spoiling then CM will need to come work with my horse long before he does anything with my dogs.  I'd have to go on one serious dog supply bender to come anywhere close to the amount I've spent on the horse.  He has a $65 blanket, his own name plate on his stall, a $25 halter, a joint suppliment, a $50 grooming kit, has had dentistry and chiropractic work done on him, he gets treats for free and doesn't have to ever work for his meals.  Neither of my dogs can say that.

ORIGINAL: sillysally

Sorry, I just don't think that the act of buying a dog toys has anything to do with whether or not they have manners. 

 
Again (and for the 3rd time now) it is NOT about the dog, the fact of spending huge amounts of money and the way the people "baby and spoil" their dogs is a sign that the owner has a different mentality towards dogs and that mentality is the one that affects the dog behavior

I think that your opinion is a HUGE generalization.   It has nothing to do with the money the owner is willing to spend--it has everything to do with the TIME the owner is willing to spend.

As I said, I spend WAY more on my horse then my dogs, and I assure you that I know that he is a horse.  He looks like a horse, he smells like a horse, and he acts like a horse.  He has the drives, behaviors, and mentaity of a horse.  I love him dearly, but I also treat him like the 1000 lb animal that he is.  Following your logic though, the amount of money that I spend on him should be a sign that I see him as a much larger, smellier child.  When I start rocking him to sleep, I'll be sure to post pictures [].

ORIGINAL: sillysally

I think that your opinion is a HUGE generalization.   It has nothing to do with the money the owner is willing to spend--it has everything to do with the TIME the owner is willing to spend.

As I said, I spend WAY more on my horse then my dogs, and I assure you that I know that he is a horse.  He looks like a horse, he smells like a horse, and he acts like a horse.  He has the drives, behaviors, and mentaity of a horse.  I love him dearly, but I also treat him like the 1000 lb animal that he is.  Following your logic though, the amount of money that I spend on him should be a sign that I see him as a much larger, smellier child.  When I start rocking him to sleep, I'll be sure to post pictures [].

 
Actually i think time has nothing to do with anything, you can spend 3 good quality hours with your dog a day and that will be better that 24 spoiling him, giving only affection and letting him do whatever he wants, and i think that it has to do with the amount of money you spend, just like you cant give everything to a kid you cant do the same with a dog
 
Of course you spend more in a horse because a horse needs more food, more vet checks, more excersice, more things than a dog and of course you cant compare a dog with a mouse either
 
My dad had one time up to 25 horses, 6 sheeps, 2 bulls and one dog, i think i know what necessities each animal have []

I think everyone needs to get past the money thing.  You can be a penny pinching old miser and STILL be as ignorant of your dog's needs as if you were willing and able to spend hundreds on a "cute" sweater for your dog.  Equally, you could be poor as a churchmouse or a freaking lottery winner and still have the wrong "mentality" towards your dog.  Money and wealth have NOTHING to do with it. 
 
And I have an issue with it being wrong to "spoil" your dogs.  That word is just waaaaay too wide open, maybe I'm construing it a different way to everyone else.  "Spoiling" is the reason I have mine.  Sure, it's probably a selfish reason, but they are not working dogs they are pets and what other function do they have other than to fulfill a need of my own for companionship etc?  But I can sure as mustard tell you right now that they are not "unbalanced" or "unhappy". 

I'm not even sure that I have a good working definition of what "unbalanced" and "balanced" even means. Anyone care to clear that up?

houndlove - I think there should be a CM-speak sticky in this section for ignoramuses like us.  I have no idea what CM or espence actually mean when they say "unbalanced", I just get a rough impression and from there you have to read between the lines.  I'm beginning to think it is used to describe any dog displaying an unwanted behaviour.  Or to look at it another way, a blaanced dog might be described as "bombproof" and therefore an "unbalanced" dog is the opposite of a "bombproof" dog. (???)
 
When you come home and your dogs are happy and excited to see you, I suspect that is "unbalanced". (?)  If you have a dog that is fear aggressive towards other dogs, I suspect that is "unbalanced". (?)  If you have a herding dog that is attempting to round up your chickens, I suspect that is also "unbalanced". (?)  If you have a Rottweiler that is boundary running, that would probably be "unablanced" too..... ?????
 
So you could say that village dogs in Mexico are balanced because they don't display these kinds of behaviours... Although that doesn't make a lot of sense as most village dogs won't get to do those kind of things.  In fact, the only time the dog's behaviour would impact on humans would be if they were aggressive towards people or their pets and if this is not happening (earning them the balanced label) then you could say that a great many behaviour problems are caused by lack of socialisation, rather than humanisation.  Village dogs in Mexico are extremely well socialised as a result of their lifestyle.  Perhaps a more relevant cultural difference between dogs there and dogs in the US/UK is that the village dogs in Mexico are well socialised....?
 
Sorry for rambling, just thinking aloud.....

I think everyone needs to get past the money thing. You can be a penny pinching old miser and STILL be as ignorant of your dog's needs as if you were willing and able to spend hundreds on a "cute" sweater for your dog. Equally, you could be poor as a churchmouse or a freaking lottery winner and still have the wrong "mentality" towards your dog. Money and wealth have NOTHING to do with it.

 Right on.

I would suggest picking up a copy of Cesar's Way and referring to his glossary of terms if someone is truely interested in understanding how this terminology is being used during the conversations where his name comes up.
 
It's the same as making an effort to learn the basic meanings of the terminologies used in conditioning methods, so that someone can follow the conversation when those terms come up. []
 
Or, maybe Espencer has a helpful link... 

Actually i think time has nothing to do with anything

 
I'm going to disagree with that. CM thinks the dogs of homeless people have good lives--and if you discount health and longevity most do. Why? These dogs are hanging out with people and other dogs all day, every day. The dogs figure out dog interaction without much intervention unless it turns into a serious fight. They are exposed to many different humans, most of whom are nice to them.  They are incredibly well socialized dogs.
 
I think a lack of socialization is what creates most serious problems. Lack of socialization equals lack of confidence in the dog. Lack of confidence equals fear. Fear equals biting.

ORIGINAL: Angelique

I would suggest picking up a copy of Cesar's Way and referring to his glossary of terms if someone is truely interested in understanding how this terminology is being used during the conversations where his name comes up.

It's the same as making an effort to learn the basic meanings of the terminologies used in conditioning methods, so that someone can follow the conversation when those terms come up. []

Or, maybe Espencer has a helpful link... 

 
Ask my friend and you shall receive []
 
[linkhttp://cesarmillaninc.com/tips/glossary.php]http://cesarmillaninc.com/tips/glossary.php[/link]
 

ORIGINAL: Stacita

Actually i think time has nothing to do with anything

I'm going to disagree with that. CM thinks the dogs of homeless people have good lives--and if you discount health and longevity most do. Why? These dogs are hanging out with people and other dogs all day, every day. The dogs figure out dog interaction without much intervention unless it turns into a serious fight. They are exposed to many different humans, most of whom are nice to them.  They are incredibly well socialized dogs.

I think a lack of socialization is what creates most serious problems. Lack of socialization equals lack of confidence in the dog. Lack of confidence equals fear. Fear equals biting.

 
I would suggest to read again what i said right after "i think time has nothing to do with anything" and you will have your answer

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: sillysally

Sorry, I just don't think that the act of buying a dog toys has anything to do with whether or not they have manners. 

Again (and for the 3rd time now) it is NOT about the dog, the fact of spending huge amounts of money and the way the people "baby and spoil" their dogs is a sign that the owner has a different mentality towards dogs and that mentality is the one that affects the dog behavior

I spend thousands on my dogs each year.  They get the very best vet care, organic or natural foods, great toys and lots of them, fancy collars and leashes, go to the ice cream stand, etc.  They are my furkids, my family, and my cuddlebugs.  BUT, they are also well trained, not treated like humans ( I like dogs better anyway, why treat them like primates LOL?).  They are great at their jobs, and they are excellent watchdogs.  Two are great therapy dogs, one is a budding agility or disc dog - maybe even tracking, who knows?  They are NOT a public nuisance.  They know who their leader is and they respect me.  They are happy dogs.  So, your generalization is not accurate.  We, and our dogs, are all individuals.  It is not fair to assume that because someone comes from a certain country or has a different ethnicity, that that will govern how they act with respect to their own individual dogs.  In some countries, like China, people still eat dogs, yet we have members from that country who take good care of their pet dogs and wouldn't think of such a thing.  Get over it.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

So, your generalization is not accurate. 

Can you quote the part where i said "all of them are like that"? i was never being general, i dont know who thought i was talking about every single person with a dog

Guess what? CM just bought a 42 acre facility for his dogs!!!!! he then is the worst dog owner ever!!!! [:'(]

Come on people, dont act like you dont know what i'm talking about, dont pretend you were born yesterday

So like they say in my town "if the jacket fits you then put it on"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stacita

quote:

Actually i think time has nothing to do with anything

I'm going to disagree with that. CM thinks the dogs of homeless people have good lives--and if you discount health and longevity most do. Why? These dogs are hanging out with people and other dogs all day, every day. The dogs figure out dog interaction without much intervention unless it turns into a serious fight. They are exposed to many different humans, most of whom are nice to them. They are incredibly well socialized dogs.

I think a lack of socialization is what creates most serious problems. Lack of socialization equals lack of confidence in the dog. Lack of confidence equals fear. Fear equals biting.


I would suggest to read again what i said right after "i think time has nothing to do with anything" and you will have your answer

Am I the only one not seeing the answer that is meant to be apparent?

Glad I'm not the only one thinking down the lack-of-socialisation route.....  That makes the most sense to me.
 
ETA - Thanks for the link.
 

  
Balance – A balanced dog is in the state Mother Nature wants it to be in – as a calm-submissive pack follower, who is fulfilled physically with exercise; psychologically with rules, boundaries and limitations; and emotionally with affection from its owner.

 
So I was kind of right..... in each of those instances I gave I would bet my granny that each of them would fall outside of the "calm-submissive pack follower" category as far as CM is concerned.  Whether or not I agree with that diagnosis is another issue entirely.  But that does clarify his meaning for me.
 

Humanizing a dog – Many owners make the well-intentioned mistake of thinking of their dogs as children. I advise people to try to see the world through a dog#%92s eyes. Cute outfits, fancy dog food, and a millionaire#%92s mansion will not make for a happy dog. Regular exercise, a strong stable pack leader and affection that#%92s earned will result in a dog that#%92s calm and balanced.

 
Hmm... if by humanizing you mean the cute outfits etc - that in itself is not damaging.  They are fine provided a dogs basic needs are met too.
If by humanizing you mean treat like children - well provided you know how children should be treated so that they will grow up to be respectful and socially acceptable (ie, they need stimlation, boundaries and affection, sound familiar????)then that's not damaging either!  I think there is a trick (or tricks) being missed here. 
 
I'm also thinking (back on-topic) that another cultural difference is Nutrition and this is something else I haven't yet seen CM address in his show.  I've seen dogs with bhvr probs turned around JUST by switching the diet to something more appropriate.  I have no doubt village dogs live mostly as scavengers and manage a more natural diet than most in-home pets and I think this could be an under estimated factor.

I was re-reading the entire thread and something just hit me. Some time ago, a friend of mine from Mexico was visiting, and asked me if it wasn't too dangerous living in the US, and I asked "what do you mean?", so he started talking about some horrible crime he'd seen in the news the night before. Mind you, what he described wasn't any crime that will make the history books, just you usual 6 oclock news sort of material. And I got to think, in Mexico you hear about that sort of thing all the time, it's just that they don't dramatize and make it the center of attention, they report pretty blandly that it happened, and they move on to talk about the stock market or whatever, here in the US we start hearing "hear about the brutal crime that shook the community, tonight on channel __ at 6" about an hour before the actual news reports start .

So, if it's true that materialism is a part of american culture and yes, we spend more money on our dogs etc here than in Mexico at least, we also pay attention and focus on different things. Come to think of it, I don't think I've seen more or less "problem dogs" here than in Mexico, I just happen to notice them more here.

I said in one of my previous posts that people in Mexico don't pay as much attention to their dogs as we do here, so, by that rationality, couldn't it be that there are as many dogs with problems in Mexico, just no one actually cares? or seen from another perspective, we make too much of a big deal about dog related problems. That would be an interesting cultural difference, "what is percieved as a dog problem?".

I mentioned in a previous post that my parents looked at me like I was crazy when I mentioned about my dogs reactivity and the behaviourist, and they actually offered a solution: "keep your dog away from other dogs, end of problem".