Cultural Differences

^ I agree.  With dogs it's not the toys themselves that make the dog spoiled, but often how they are allowed to behave with them.  My dogs have toys, but they are not allowed to guard them from me or shove them into my hand and explect to be played with in return....

ORIGINAL: JM

I think this in itself is humanizing dogs and seeing them as children.  We pretty much know that it is not healthy to give a child excess material goods.

I am not sure materialism has the ability to corrupt dogs.

To a dog, dads old torn sock works just as well as a 10.00 tug toy from petco.

 
My point is not that the things we give spoil the dogs, just the fact that there is people whilling to buy doggy steps shows the mentality the owner has towards the dog, like you said, with a simple old torn sock the dog would be having as much fun as the $10 tug toy from petco, but no, people even has to buy doggy strollers to avoid their baby any kind of exhaustion
 
The dog is still a dog and does not know the difference, the owners mentality is the one that affects the dog, the materialism is just prove of the way the owner see the dog, i'm not saying that you should not buy toys for your dog but there is a difference between a frisbee and a $95 sweater

oh okay, I get you.  I actually saw one of those strollers the other day at petland.

It's lke geesh...enough already.

I don't see any problem with people buying expensive clothes for their doggies. If you have money why not? In the end, everybody invests in what makes them feel good - some pay hundreds for motorcycle parts, Channel bags, others love to go out, etc. I don't understand somebody paying $100/week to stock up their 'bar' as much as I don't understand buying a $100 doggie jacket... *That* doesn't ruin dogs it's something else...
I have never thought about this devision between working dogs (which are "happy and content") and companion dogs (often described as understimulated, etc.) To me, all dogs are dogs, some just work less than others... Work is "work" for humans, for a dog, work is just "good times". I have never consciously drawn that line...

Now, I know there are cultures within cultures, etc., I am generalizing here... But, one of the biggest problem in the US I associate with dog owning, is the fact that so many laws are passed pushing on control from 'above' rather than encouraging individual responsibility and common sense. This limits not only our freedoms, but also freedoms of our pets (hence problem dogs). I want a public place where I could eat, have a beer, and have my dog play with another dog next to me. I want laws that allow dogs of leash with the dog under your control... Yes, that brings up the whole issue of "but people are too stupid", but, hey, life is hard, the more exercise your brain gets the better it is for you and our culture overall. [8D]

ORIGINAL: TinaK

I don't see any problem with people buying expensive clothes for their doggies. If you have money why not? In the end, everybody invests in what makes them feel good - some pay hundreds for motorcycle parts, Channel bags, others love to go out, etc. I don't understand somebody paying $100/week to stock up their 'bar' as much as I don't understand buying a $100 doggie jacket... *That* doesn't ruin dogs it's something else...
I have never thought about this devision between working dogs (which are "happy and content") and companion dogs (often described as understimulated, etc.) To me, all dogs are dogs, some just work less than others... Work is "work" for humans, for a dog, work is just "good times". I have never consciously drawn that line...

 
Again, is not the materialism what affects the dog, the materialism is only prove of the way the owner see the dog
 
I agree that if you have the money you spend it the way you want, in another countries people dont have the money to spean $100 on a jacket, therefore they see the dogs a little bit different, even if they were having  a spare $100 bill, the last thing they are going to spend it is on doggy clothing
 
The thing is that if you "spoil" your bar or motorcycle, those 2 things are not going to behave different, if you spoil your dog he will, the fact of spending $100 on a doggy jacket could mean also that you see your dog more than just a dog, could mean that you also let your dog do things that he should not do, could mean that you would like your dog to look "cute" and subconsciously you see him more than the dog he is, you see him in a "huminize doggy way"

What's wrong with dog stairs? Some dogs have arthritis.

I don't like using 'don't humanize dogs' as code for 'don't spoil dogs' because frankly, lots of humans are spoiled to and it isn't a good thing for either dogs or humans. Growing up my best friend was pretty much in the same income bracket as my parents. Middle to upper-middle class. Our parents probably spent the same amount of money on us total per year. But she was horribly, horribly spoiled, and I don't think I was. It wasn't the amount of money spent, it was how it was doled out and why.

Anyway, you know where a lot of people have reported seeing a tremendous number of "balanced" dogs? New York City. I've seen them too. And I see them a lot where I live now which is of course a smaller city but still an urban context. It's just a matter of good socialization and training for public access being a necessity rather than an option. There were also a lot of very easy to live with dogs where I went to college because they were welcome everywhere there too. Even the bar everyone went to (totally breaking the health code). They were taken to class, to parties, to the bar, and given the jobs a lot of students had, to work. Very well socialized dogs for whom having some amount of training was not an option because of how much they were out in public.

Our neighbors where we used to live in Maryland had some absolutely hellacious dogs. They lived outside, in a kennel, but were frequently let out to run around (ID-less and one of them an intact male) on their own with no supervision, often for days. They were perfectly happy to do this, and behaved as dogs will: peeing on everything (including human beings), humping anything that moved, bowling over every human they saw with enthusiasm, barking and howling constantly, and just generally being unendingly annoying. Talk about domestic dogs not being pack animals as well--they rarely packed. They all went their seperate ways most of the time. They'd never been inside of a house (I made the mistake of letting one in to my house once and he promptly peed on my CD rack), had never recieved any training of any kind ever. They were socialized to humans in the form of their own family and the few people they'd see around on their journeys, but that was about it. So tell me, would these dogs be considered "balanced"? They seemed pretty happy to me. But wow so irritating to be around.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: JM

I think this in itself is humanizing dogs and seeing them as children.  We pretty much know that it is not healthy to give a child excess material goods.

I am not sure materialism has the ability to corrupt dogs.

To a dog, dads old torn sock works just as well as a 10.00 tug toy from petco.

My point is not that the things we give spoil the dogs, just the fact that there is people whilling to buy doggy steps shows the mentality the owner has towards the dog, like you said, with a simple old torn sock the dog would be having as much fun as the $10 tug toy from petco, but no, people even has to buy doggy strollers to avoid their baby any kind of exhaustion

The dog is still a dog and does not know the difference, the owners mentality is the one that affects the dog, the materialism is just prove of the way the owner see the dog, i'm not saying that you should not buy toys for your dog but there is a difference between a frisbee and a $95 sweater

If I had an old sock rather than a tug toy Jack would ingest it.  Socks are rather unsafe toys for dogs like labs.

ORIGINAL: sillysally

If I had an old sock rather than a tug toy Jack would ingest it.  Socks are rather unsafe toys for dogs like labs.

 
Ok, change the example to whatever fits your dog  

I don't see the purchase of dog toys & accessories as tightly related to the spoiling or babying of dogs. It's just another facet or avenue of materialism. When I was 18 I wasted money on 'going out,' when I was 22 I wasted money on clothes, when I was 25 I wasted money on home accessories, and when I got a dog I wasted money on the dog. Some people just like shopping. [] Just as a dog doesn't mind chewing on an old sock, he also doesn't realize you spent $25 on the "indestructible" stuffy. Lord, if they only knew we were spoiling them then they'd really have us by the kibbles & bits, LOL.
 
Cressida, very good point about what "behavioral problems" really means. I was trying to put it into words but coming up with clumsier analogies... yours is great.
 
 

ORIGINAL: ldyharley
Dogs develop behavioral problems when we attempt to 'humanize' them, to be what we want them to be. 

Well, I don't know. Like I said before, how do I know working dogs with behavioural problems aren't taken out back and shot in the head? And I think there's a serious sampling bias here. If the dog is in a situation/culture where no one pays much attention to it, how are we to know whether it has a so-called behavioural problem or not? I think serious problems arise when people fail to meet their dog's needs, but equally, when people make no effort to meet their dog's needs and leave that all up to the dog, it can turn out fine. I've seen the exact same thing happen with kids. Perhaps if all dogs were left to meet their own needs they would be happy because they get to do what they want to do, but are they as healthy, safe and secure?

My old neighbors' dogs socially howling at all hours? Totally fine as far as the humans were concerned--they had sound-proof windows (uh, those of us next door were not so lucky but after a while you get used to it). Not a behavior problem, just natural dog behavior. Many canids vocalize for social reasons.
 
My dogs doing the same thing? I live in the city in a duplex. While this is still totally natural dog behavior, it is now a behavior problem.
 
Dogs fighting (sometimes brutally) to defend territory? Totally natural canid behavior, either as individuals or in packs. Dogs fighting at the dog park? Behavior problem. It's completely natural for any animal to jealously gaurd it's resources, from members of it's own species as well as other species (canine law says, no matter what your rank, once it's in your mouth, it is yours). Natural canid behavior. But, a behavior problem when it's your dog in your house gaurding a toy from your 3 year old. Dogs by nature are opportunistic scavengers--they'll eat whatever they can get their mouths on that they deem edible. That's how they co-evolved with humans, by scavenging off our waste. But that's a behavior problem when it's your kitchen garbage being raided and your counters surfed upon. Dogs play with their teeth, as they do not have opposable thumbs. My dogs nibble on each other constantly and every now and then inflict a small accidental wound. Completely natural and completely a behavior problem that the owners would freak out about if it was their 6 month old puppy doing that same thing to their 8 year old child.
 
In fact, I can't really think of a single common dog "behavior problem" that would still be a behavior problem for a semi-feral village dog or even your average "yard dog". There are of course dogs with a screw loose. Ever see that video of the dog who's such a resource gaurder that he's gaurding his dinner bowl from himself? That I am sure is an organic problem, perhaps an OCD of some kind. But all the stuff that we talk about on a daily basis here are simply things that dogs do naturally that we would prefer them to not do when living in houses with us. Its absolutely apples and oranges to compare village dogs to our developed world in-home pet dogs as far as their "behavior problems".

Another brilliant post.... nothing to add.  []

To a dog, dads old torn sock works just as well as a 10.00 tug toy from petco.

 Just like parents who spend hundreds of dollars on a gift for a child. The parents are so happy with the purchase and confident the child will really love it until the child opens the gift, tosses the item to the side and plays in the box!!!

Teaching manners is not a cultural trait! 
 
Socio-economic status is not a cultural trait. 
 
The US has a huge cultural diversity as well as a huge variance of socio-economic range. 
 
 

ORIGINAL: dogslife

Teaching manners is not a cultural trait! 

Socio-economic status is not a cultural trait. 

The US has a huge cultural diversity as well as a huge variance of socio-economic range. 

 
And like i said before, when those people get here and see how things are done they just do the same and that includes the way they treat their pets, no everybody is like that but a big part is, i have seen it with my own eyes