No dog is too much for me......

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

I think CM "claims leadership" very effectively but I am uncomfortable when he uses conflict to achieve it.

But isn't that conflict already in existence? The owner is probably having conflict with the dog on a regular basis - but the dog usually comes out on top in those conflicts. Cesar shows the owner how to resolve the conflicts without anger, yelling, screaming and abuse.

True.  But IMO he should diffuse the situation by removing the conflict, not adding to it.  There is more than one way to skin a cat and there are ways to gain a dog's respect that placing yourself in direct conflict with him/her.  I think this is to be avoided at all costs.  For all I know this is what CM himself attempts to do, for safety reasons if nothing else and so he too sees it as a kind of failure when he has to resort to it.

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

The "claiming" is a great way of describing the way I've seen dogs resolve conflicts with each other. My Dalmation, Blackhawk is nearly 13 years old and not nearly physically as strong as Lucy. But when he wants something she has - like a bone, he will just walk up into her personal space and stare at her. She will drop the bone and walk away. My sister's "pack" of two danes, a golden and a rat terrier all interact in the same manner. No physical interaction - but definitely a conflict and non-physical resolution there.

 
Oh yes, dogs do do that - but dogs are dogs and we are supposedly an intelligent species with opposable thumbs []  Do we need to resort to direct, arrogant bully boy tactics such as these to get what we want?  My ex's family had a pack of 4 dogs and the undisputed "leader" was an elderly cocker spaniel who never did anything like that to get what it wanted.... This dog had a kind of presence - an aura of dignity and charisma that commanded respect and appeared to get everything it wanted (in terms of the other dogs) without appearing to do anything at all.  If that dog can manage to have attitude, surely a human can manage it too.  And if I am going to emulate "dog-speak", then between the two examples, I know which "dog" I would take as my study.

Oh, I have seen CM place himself in very dangerous situations, like the two dogs that looked like they would tear one from limb to limb, but once he entered the room and shut the door, those two bada$$es were pretty calm.

I think he has a gift, and not all trainers have that, it's something that comes natural and can't be studied and copied from a book.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy


True.  But IMO he should diffuse the situation by removing the conflict, not adding to it.  There is more than one way to skin a cat and there are ways to gain a dog's respect that placing yourself in direct conflict with him/her.  I think this is to be avoided at all costs.  For all I know this is what CM himself attempts to do, for safety reasons if nothing else and so he too sees it as a kind of failure when he has to resort to it.

 
That would be personal preference,  like i said before, N-O-T always Cesar uses force, most of the people already tried methods like the ones you are talking about and didnt make any change at all, Cesar is not the first guy they call

You presume too much.  I haven't specified what "methods I am talking about"!!  And I won't in this section either because they will construed completely wrongly.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

You presume too much.  I haven't specified what "methods I am talking about"!!  And I won't in this section either because they will construed completely wrongly.

I dont need to be Einstein to know what "methods" you are talking about, for sure not CM methods but that does not make them wrong, also considering you are an avid fan of the clicker training forum that could give us a clue

edit to add: "arrogant bully boy tactics" are things that niether we or CM use, just like those "treat dispenser" or "butler" techniques, do you use those?

edit to add: "arrogant bully boy tactics" are things that niether we or CM use, just like those "treat dispenser" or "butler" techniques, do you use those?

 
 
Oy, espencer, don't go there, you will get some big undies in a wad..........[8D]

ORIGINAL: snownose

edit to add: "arrogant bully boy tactics" are things that niether we or CM use, just like those "treat dispenser" or "butler" techniques, do you use those?

Oy, espencer, don't go there, you will get some big undies in a wad..........[8D]

 
Well i bet if i go to the clicker training forum and i say the same there they are not going to be happy, why she thinks she can come and do it here?
 
Besides.....................i dont know what you mean with "big undies in a wad" [&:]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I'm sure that, if he lives long enough, CM will surely come across dogs that are too much for him, or anyone.  I mean, if a shrink lives long enough, does he come across a Jeffrey Dahmer eventually? 
Fun to discuss this, but it's a crapshoot, and not necessarily based on skill level.  There are dogs born with screws loose - just depends on when, or if, you run across them, I suspect.

I've met a few dogs that no doubt they had a screw loose. While I know under very strict circumstances I could take care of and handle these dogs, I also know their owners shouldn't, and can't. Here's where CM and I differ, I don't really know that it's the right thing to do keeping a dog alive that can never have balance, peace, and happiness in it's life. But I won't judge those that try, because they could be right and I could be wrong. It is without a doubt the toughest situation to have to deal with.

ORIGINAL: snownose

To me, if you can't educate the owner, no matter how successful you are in dealing with the dog yourself, you have failed.

IMO, Cesar does a very good job trying to educate the owners about what needs to happen with the dog.
Will the owners stick with it? That is a whole other situation.

And I know first hand it can be done because i've turned some very bad dogs, whos owners to this day remark on how wonderful their dogs are now. And we're talking years later.[]

Besides.....................i dont know what you mean with "big undies in a wad"

 
 
I would have said panties but we might not be dealing with that, that's why I said big undies/underwear......[8D]
 
 
But you do have a point.........[]

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

And I don't deny him credit for that, really I don't.  But by the same token that does not necessarily mean that a skilled trainer could not have achieved good results w/o using confrontational means.

He is skilled at what he does. And it's only conjecture on your park that a "skilled trainer" (whatever that's suposed to mean) shoulda coulda woulda, have done anything.

A good trainer/behaviourist/leader/communicator with dogs does not (IMO) have to resort to using force and that is the kind of "trainer" I aspire to be.... so when I do use force I feel I have failed, that I have "met my match", that in a way, the dog got "one over on me".  And I judge other trainers/bhvrsts by the same standard.

Who is the best "communicator" with dogs? I believe it's another dog. Dogs use force when needed and because *dogs* understand this, it doesn't cause problems within a pack. It's only a problem for humans who put their feelings upon every other living creature. Cesar understands dogs on their level and works with that, not what humans *think or feel* is best. Humans do not know more about dogs than nature.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

You presume too much.  I haven't specified what "methods I am talking about"!!  And I won't in this section either because they will construed completely wrongly.

I dont need to be Einstein to know what "methods" you are talking about, for sure not CM methods but that does not make them wrong, also considering you are an avid fan of the clicker training forum that could give us a clue

 
Nope.  I was not referring to clicker training.  Like I said, you presume too much.
 

ORIGINAL: espencer

edit to add: "arrogant bully boy tactics" are things that niether we or CM use, just like those "treat dispenser" or "butler" techniques, do you use those?

 
And that phrase was referring specifically to the tactics one dog used on another not to anything CM does.
 
Seeing as each and every word is being misconstrued, taken out of context and blasted, I'm out.  Enjoy the rest of the discussion.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Nope.  I was not referring to clicker training.  Like I said, you presume too much.

 
I didnt say it either, i say that just give us a clue

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

And that phrase was referring specifically to the tactics one dog used on another not to anything CM does.

 
I really really really, and i mean really doubt a dog has arrogant bully tactics, a bully enjoys to inflict fear, i dont think dogs have fun seeing fear in another animal
 
I agree that misconceptions like this one about "bully techniques in dogs" can turn this thread into something ugly so have fun out there

ORIGINAL: espencer


I really really really, and i mean really doubt a dog has arrogant bully tactics, a bully enjoys to inflict fear, i dont think dogs have fun seeing fear in another animal

Once again, humans putting their feeling on dogs.

I agree that misconceptions like this one about "bully techniques in dogs" can turn this thread into something ugly so have fun out there

I couldn't agree more.

I'm still not sure why we love to say things like "there's no way we can speak 'dog' so we shouldn't try." One of my favorite Suzanne Clothier articles has a really good example of "speaking dog" and she has been mentioned many times by people who say that speaking "dog" is not possible.

[linkhttp://www.flyingdogpress.com/pposa.html]Original Article[/link]

I can't quote the article here due to copyright restrictions, but she writes about how she deals with a puppy approaching her while she eats a sandwich. Her descriptions of leadership in this and other articles remind me a lot of Cesar's techniques. She does a good job of describing the subtleties that most humans skip bit that are important to dogs. I think Cesar has a firm grasp of these subtleties and we miss them on TV. Clothier maintains that a +P interaction like this will not harm our relationship with our dogs as long as we use them with proper timing, subtlety and appropriateness of scale.

I use body-blocking often as a technique. I've read about it in books by Patricia McConnell and seen it on Cesar's show. When I first started using it, I had to physically get between Lucy and whatever got her distracted. Now, all I have to do is stand up and snap my fingers and she stops whatever she is doing. Overall, a much more subtle interaction but I don't necessarily see it as confrontational. Maybe if she were aggressive it would be different.