No dog is too much for me......

I think CM "claims leadership" very effectively but I am uncomfortable when he uses conflict to achieve it.

 
I don't recall CM using conflict for a resolution. I see him taking the leader position and being firm about it and the dog finally accepts that it is no longer leader. CM goes in  with the mindset that he is in charge and that there is no conflict about that status and the dog will soon drop it's assumption of the leader role. The one creating conflict is the owner who has allowed the dog to take charge. So, when CM "owns" a bag of treats, cellphone, t.v. remote, he is assuming the human's natural position of leader of the dog. Unless the setting of boundaries is considered a conflict. I can see where you might consider some of his physical techniques confrontational but they are no more so than what the dog got from momma when he/she was a pup.

Her descriptions of leadership in this and other articles remind me a lot of Cesar's techniques. She does a good job of describing the subtleties that most humans skip bit that are important to dogs.

 
I've noticed the same thing, as well. Though she may not advocate some of the stronger physical measures, some of her thinking reminds me of CM. It may be worthwhile to note that she doesn't have academic creds, either. She started out as and still is a breeder of GSDs.
 

ORIGINAL: ron2

I think CM "claims leadership" very effectively but I am uncomfortable when he uses conflict to achieve it.

I don't recall CM using conflict for a resolution. I see him taking the leader position and being firm about it and the dog finally accepts that it is no longer leader. CM goes in  with the mindset that he is in charge and that there is no conflict about that status and the dog will soon drop it's assumption of the leader role.

Dogs in the wild live in packs by choice follow pack leaders, It's natural to them. Ranking is natural to them. Waiting is natural to them. Hunting is natural to them. Teaching their young is natural to them. Learning by observing is natural to them. Play and effection is natural to them. And so is discipline is natural to them. And yet humans think somehow discipline...is bad. Sure this makes sense to humans (just look how great it's working with children), but it's quite confusing the dog who really just wants to be a dog. I know, I know, their not wolves, they don't care about rank or being part of a pack any more, their dogs but not really dogs, their more like...human dogs. They think and feel just like we do, and therefore we should only ever praise them, ingore them when they act up, and never discipline them. Shame on Cesar, how dare him I say! I'm cancelling my membership with him right now.[]

And yet humans think somehow discipline...is bad. Sure this makes sense to humans (just look how great it's working with children

 
A point I have tried to make before and it was not well received, so to speak. I was raised with harsh discipline, excessive corporal punishment, emotional and psychological abuse. But to raise a child or dog without boundaries can be just as much an abuse. And, in spite of my character flaws and lingering non-physical scars, I can still see the need for correction, though it doesn't have to be harsh. Also, I see dogs as different than humans, though we can exhibit the same behaviors. If dogs are no longer wild animals, then treating them as such may be a disservice.
 
That being said, I also see the value of operant conditioning and it's use in any species but specifically any mammalian species. I have used operant conditioning with crew members on projects of which I have been in charge. Crew members that receive an "attaboy" for doing good work or coming up with a solution continue to improve, not because they want more attaboys but because I don't punish for independent thinking. So, they learn more to think for themselves and come up with solutions and I don't have to tell them every little thing and I have more time to do the metric ton of paperwork involved in managing a job, making us all more efficient. I do correct and re-direct when things go awry but I get us back in the forward moving direction, where more rewards follow.

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

I'm still not sure why we love to say things like "there's no way we can speak 'dog' so we shouldn't try." One of my favorite Suzanne Clothier articles has a really good example of "speaking dog" and she has been mentioned many times by people who say that speaking "dog" is not possible.

[linkhttp://www.flyingdogpress.com/pposa.html]Original Article[/link]

I can't quote the article here due to copyright restrictions, but she writes about how she deals with a puppy approaching her while she eats a sandwich. Her descriptions of leadership in this and other articles remind me a lot of Cesar's techniques. She does a good job of describing the subtleties that most humans skip bit that are important to dogs. I think Cesar has a firm grasp of these subtleties and we miss them on TV. Clothier maintains that a +P interaction like this will not harm our relationship with our dogs as long as we use them with proper timing, subtlety and appropriateness of scale.

I use body-blocking often as a technique. I've read about it in books by Patricia McConnell and seen it on Cesar's show. When I first started using it, I had to physically get between Lucy and whatever got her distracted. Now, all I have to do is stand up and snap my fingers and she stops whatever she is doing. Overall, a much more subtle interaction but I don't necessarily see it as confrontational. Maybe if she were aggressive it would be different.

Interestingly, we have some dogs at our play groups that will calmly walk between two other dogs that are facing off, and that they seem to perceive are escalating, as a way to defuse the situation.  We call them "the fun police", but their actions are very effective in helping us reduce the possibility of any tiffs. []  Observing canine behavior is a great way to learn to speak canine, albeit as a non-native speaker with an accent LOL.

I call that "being the referee" and Conrad does that at the dog park all the time. He just strolls up pretty casual like, "Hey guys I'm noticing there's a little tension here. Anyone want to play with me instead? You're kind of bumming me out with all this negative energy, man."

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Interestingly, we have some dogs at our play groups that will calmly walk between two other dogs that are facing off, and that they seem to perceive are escalating, as a way to defuse the situation.  We call them "the fun police", but their actions are very effective in helping us reduce the possibility of any tiffs. []  Observing canine behavior is a great way to learn to speak canine, albeit as a non-native speaker with an accent LOL.

 
Yes, I wondered what Marvin was doing when the 3 Great Danes are playing tug and doing the spinwheel and then Marvin walks over in the middle of the group and hoots and hollars.  I guess Marvin would be called the "kill-joy police".

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Observing canine behavior is a great way to learn to speak canine, albeit as a non-native speaker with an accent LOL.

Wow, thats funny, i know about a guy who has been observing canine behavior for 25+ years so far, therefore he knows a lot about canine behavior as you mention, however if i tell you who he is for some weird reason that would not make him as good as you []

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
  We call them "the fun police",

I like that![]

ORIGINAL: ron2
 I can still see the need for correction, though it doesn't have to be harsh.

Harsh corrections (ones that inflict unnecessary plain) are normally done by a person who has lost or has no control to begin with.

If dogs are no longer wild animals, then treating them as such may be a disservice.

I don't treat dogs like wild animals, I understand they been domesticated for thousands of years, but they are still dogs, and still share many of the same traits their ancestors do. Just watch any hearding dog go into stealth mode, it's natural to them, just as many other things are, including...discipline.

I'm still not sure why we love to say things like "there's no way we can speak 'dog' so we shouldn't try." One of my favorite Suzanne Clothier articles has a really good example of "speaking dog" and she has been mentioned many times by people who say that speaking "dog" is not possible.

 
I read this article awhile back and really enjoyed it. Something I had never thought about before - the way humans have no sense of the subtleties of different warning levels. If my dog was coming too close while I'm eating, I never would have thought to just freeze and harden my eyes as a warning. We escalate immediately to "HEY! NO!". Dogs must think we are so jumpy and spastic!

Harsh corrections (ones that inflict unnecessary plain) are normally done by a person who has lost or has no control to begin with.

 
 
Very good point.[]

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Observing canine behavior is a great way to learn to speak canine, albeit as a non-native speaker with an accent LOL.

Wow, thats funny, i know about a guy who has been observing canine behavior for 25+ years so far, therefore he knows a lot about canine behavior as you mention, however if i tell you who he is for some weird reason that would not make him as good as you []

I've been observing canine behavior for 49 years.  The length of time observing dogs has nothing to do with whether someone's observations are accurate.  Not putting anyone down, but I certainly don't feel inferior to CM in terms of my own skill level simply because he's the one with the TV show.  I don't think that he would be as critical of my skills as you guys are, frankly.  The proof is in the pudding.  If you can help dogs, and owners, to live harmoniously, then you have some skill.  The only difference I can see between us is that I choose to employ behavior modification techniques that are based more on positive training, dog-friendly behavior modification, and the use of different equipment, in many circumstances than he does.  And, I have no problem with you supporting a different method of achieving the same goal, if you want to, but I do resent the inference that because I don't share someone else's methodology that that somehow makes me less skilled at working with similar dogs and issues. 

I've met people who've lived with and observed dogs their entire lives and still say things like "That dog peed there just to make me angry, he knows what he did is wrong, see now he looks guilty." They've interperated a dog's natural appeasement behaviors as "guilt" and no amount of just watching dogs is going to correct that false assumption based on the observation. It is possible (not saying anyone we're talking about here does or does not do this, just saying it's possible) to observe dogs and be around them your whole life and still totally misinterperate what you're seeing.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I've been observing canine behavior for 49 years.  The length of time observing dogs has nothing to do with whether someone's observations are accurate.  Not putting anyone down, but I certainly don't feel inferior to CM in terms of my own skill level simply because he's the one with the TV show.  I don't think that he would be as critical of my skills as you guys are, frankly.  The proof is in the pudding.  If you can help dogs, and owners, to live harmoniously, then you have some skill.  The only difference I can see between us is that I choose to employ behavior modification techniques that are based more on positive training, dog-friendly behavior modification, and the use of different equipment, in many circumstances than he does.  And, I have no problem with you supporting a different method of achieving the same goal, if you want to, but I do resent the inference that because I don't share someone else's methodology that that somehow makes me less skilled at working with similar dogs and issues. 

 
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand nobody said you were inferior, did I?, here..........*click to calm* aaaand treat  []