No dog is too much for me......

but it's a crapshoot, and not necessarily based on skill level. There are dogs born with screws loose - just depends on when, or if, you run across them, I suspect

 
I agree and, in those cases, euthanasia is the humane thing to do.
 

His greatest skill, IMO, lies in working with the people not the dogs, because it is the owners who must interact with their dogs day in day out and their success or failure that reflects on CM. I suspect at the start of his career this skill with people was not nearly so well-honed, which resulted him not being able to help a number of dogs which must have been enormously frustrating for him.

 
Spot on.
 

Someone else already noted that with some dogs he uses more force than with others and this (again only IMO) is a failure in itself.

Well, I just wanted to add that you have to remember what he's working with.  That Jindo is about around what Willow was like when I got her.  She was a little less edgy but basically the same type of situation. 

And, my gentle ways worked for the most part and as time goes on she continues to do well.  But, there are things that were never adequately addressed by me with these gentle techniques.  She could really stand to be confronted on a few things.  I never did it myself because I didn't feel like I had the experience and I didn't want to ruin her trust in me.  And, honestly, at one time I was very afraid of being bitten. 

We have to remember that these are dogs that will take a treat and then try to bite the person when the treat is gone.  That's what I was dealing with. 

And, also to remember that being forceful and being abusive are two different things.

It all comes down to necessity---if the dog doesn't need anything more than gentle techniques than that's what should be used. 
 
I think the methods he used on the Jindo were a success for that dog.  They might have been a failure if applied to another dog. 

Force is not ALWAYS wrong.... but you do tread a fine line when you use it I think. 
 
I have seen CM use force where I have been dubious over whether it was necessary, regardless of whether it was successful or not. 
 
It is not that I feel that force=abuse, more that force=resistance and is therefore counterproductive.  I also think that it is the mark of a true leader to achieve their aims and get others to follow without using force, so when when CM uses force I feel that he is going against the grain of his own philosophies in a very fundamental way. 
 
What I am trying to say is that the topic of this thread seems to be dependant on your definition of "failure" - where some people would see an unrehabbed dog as "failure"; I see a dog that he felt he needed to use force to rehab him as a kind of failure too.  When I see a dog that CM is being "forceful" with, I think it is because he has met his match - this is a dog that is "too much" for him if you like because he is not able to convince that dog to elect him as leader any other way.  I don't think I am making any sense so I will stop!!

I think CM demands that all dogs accept him as the leader, that's why he says a lot of times he is claiming the space, the furniture.......so on.
IMO, some dogs don't fall into that category of giving up dominance very easily, why should they, most of them have been getting away with it for years, only because the owners never did their job.
So, when this occurs it looks like more force than with the more tame dogs........IMO, people should take that into consideration.

As you might guess, I think Chuffy makes a good point about how we define failure.  IMHO, it is a failure to use excessive amounts of force on a dog that could have been rehabbed without it.  I worry about the use of force by trainers or behavior experts that gets emulated inappropriately by owners who don't have the proper timing, and may not even understand what is or is not a "disobedience" versus normal canine reactions to various stimuli or stressors.  To me, if you can't educate the owner, no matter how successful you are in dealing with the dog yourself, you have failed.  

To me, if you can't educate the owner, no matter how successful you are in dealing with the dog yourself, you have failed.

 
IMO, Cesar does a very good job trying to educate the owners about what needs to happen with the dog.
Will the owners stick with it? That is a whole other situation.
 

ORIGINAL: snownose

I think CM demands that all dogs accept him as the leader, that's why he says a lot of times he is claiming the space, the furniture.......so on.
IMO, some dogs don't fall into that category of giving up dominance very easily, why should they, most of them have been getting away with it for years, only because the owners never did their job.
So, when this occurs it looks like more force than with the more tame dogs........IMO, people should take that into consideration.

 
It's true that he may use little or no force in that scenario, although it may appear forceful because of the personality of the dog involved and I do think critic should take that into acocunt. 
But I think another word that I am uncomfortable in dog training/interaction is conflict.  I think CM "claims leadership" very effectively but I am uncomfortable when he uses conflict to achieve it.  Again I think this is a mark of "failure".... IMO a more skilled trainer or behaviourist would have been able to rehab the dog without that confrontation.  But that's purely my opinion and beliefs on that matter.  It's not gospel and I am not offended in the slightest if anyone doesn't agree.

Success vs failure. One of those personal opinion word definition debates...again. []
 
So, it's in the eye of the beholder...again.
 
Success is a stable, fulfilled, well adjusted dog which is a safe member of society and welcomed anywhere, and gets to live.
 
Failure is an unhealthy, confused, unstable, frustrated, aggressive, destructive, insecure, bratty, spoiled, anti-social, dangerous, or out of control dog which initially became that way through human contact, and ends up stuffed into a garbage can because it was put to death for it's human created problems.
 
Just my perspective on it. []
 
 

ORIGINAL: snownose

To me, if you can't educate the owner, no matter how successful you are in dealing with the dog yourself, you have failed.

IMO, Cesar does a very good job trying to educate the owners about what needs to happen with the dog.
Will the owners stick with it? That is a whole other situation.

A trainer, behaviorist, rehabilitator, teacher, etc...is a tool to be used by the owner. It is the owner's dog. It is the owner's responsibility.

The person they hire carries the responsibility to be honest, and do their best to help that dog or send the dog to someone else who can.

Sadly, there are some owners who will absolutely not do anything which is not self rewarding at the expense of their dog.

I know a couple who had lots of friends who were knowledgable about dogs. These folks would not listen to anyone, although we all tried. Aside from a bit of clicker-training when they were pups to "sit" on command for a cookie, their dogs were not taught any social skills or manners. They were overindulged and spoiled rotten because this couple believed that boundaries were unfair to the dogs. The dogs were never walked. One dog ended up being put down for constantly getting loose and killing the neighborhood pets. The other dog is so morbidly obese, it can barely walk.

It's up to the owner to educate themselves and do right by their dogs. There are some people you simply can't help unless they make the decision to stop their self-fulfillment, educate themselves, and put the needs of their dog (and the safety of society), first.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

But I think another word that I am uncomfortable in dog training/interaction is conflict.  I think CM "claims leadership" very effectively but I am uncomfortable when he uses conflict to achieve it.  Again I think this is a mark of "failure".... IMO a more skilled trainer or behaviourist would have been able to rehab the dog without that confrontation.  But that's purely my opinion and beliefs on that matter.  It's not gospel and I am not offended in the slightest if anyone doesn't agree.

 
The funny thing is that a lot, and i mean a loooooot of his clients have claim that they tried everything else and didnt work, Cesar is rarely the fist guy they call for help, that means that already skilled trainers and behaviorists went thru that dog, i mean, Cesar is not a easy guy to book for an appoinment []
 
Also there was this time when he was dealing with a very shy dog, some posters here remember that episode since it was kind of controversial that he used the prong collar the owners had to take the dog out of the kennel, he used the prong as a normal collar, didnt make any corrections of course but that was a good example that Cesar has gentle way to help a dog depending on the situation, he of course never uses force with low self-esteem dogs
 
 

It's up to the owner to educate themselves and do right by their dogs. There are some people you simply can't help unless they make the decision to stop their self-fulfillment, educate themselves, and put the needs of their dog (and the safety of society), first.

 
Yes!  I recall a few episodes with clients who had small breed/lap dogs that basically refused to make any changes.  CM said straight up that he can't help them if they aren't willing to look at themselves and make some changes for the dog's sake.  That babying of small dogs is a very hard thing for him to correct, yet the owners have "monsters" on their hands that bite and snarl at every chance.  Why people put up with that behavior is so beyond me.  The husband that allowed the dog to bite the wife on their bed every single day.  The mother that allowed her Chi to bite her kid every single day because they didn't want to set rules, boundaries and limitations!  WTF??  Let's let the dog bite our family members for fear of hurting poor Poo Poos's feelings???[:'(]  All boils down to treating small dogs as humans and not dogs.    

And I don't deny him credit for that, really I don't.  But by the same token that does not necessarily mean that a skilled trainer could not have achieved good results w/o using confrontational means.  A good trainer/behaviourist/leader/communicator with dogs does not (IMO) have to resort to using force and that is the kind of "trainer" I aspire to be.... so when I do use force I feel I have failed, that I have "met my match", that in a way, the dog got "one over on me".  And I judge other trainers/bhvrsts by the same standard.

I think CM "claims leadership" very effectively but I am uncomfortable when he uses conflict to achieve it.

But isn't that conflict already in existence? The owner is probably having conflict with the dog on a regular basis - but the dog usually comes out on top in those conflicts. Cesar shows the owner how to resolve the conflicts without anger, yelling, screaming and abuse.

The "claiming" is a great way of describing the way I've seen dogs resolve conflicts with each other. My Dalmation, Blackhawk is nearly 13 years old and not nearly physically as strong as Lucy. But when he wants something she has - like a bone, he will just walk up into her personal space and stare at her. She will drop the bone and walk away. My sister's "pack" of two danes, a golden and a rat terrier all interact in the same manner. No physical interaction - but definitely a conflict and non-physical resolution there.

But by the same token that does not necessarily mean that a skilled trainer could not have achieved good results w/o using confrontational means.

 
Well considering CM's clients have called other trainers, and they didn't get nowhere, isn't it safe to say this world is covered with quack trainers then?
 
 
I love the armchair quarterbacking on the CM thread.......talking from behind a pc on what should have taken place is actually pretty funny.