CM and an SA dog

ORIGINAL: DPU.

Can anyone recollect these episodes, describe your take, and what you saw CM do to have the most impact on the SA dog?  Your comments or recollections would be greatly appreciated.

 
Anyone?

ORIGINAL: DPU.

ORIGINAL: DPU.

Can anyone recollect these episodes, describe your take, and what you saw CM do to have the most impact on the SA dog?  Your comments or recollections would be greatly appreciated.

Anyone?

Well like you saw on his blog, a nice walk before you leave is a great help, you have to make sure they remain calm when you leave the house, you can do that by leaving for minimal amounts of time and increasing little by little, if they start getting excited when you are leaving, calm them down (no baby talk kind of calm down) and dont make a big deal out of it

In one of the episodes he used a creat and in the second showed a couple, when one of the owners was leaving and the dogs started having SA the other owner calmed them down "Cesar style", that means correcting the undesirable behavior with body blocking and by being calm but assertive

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

Fact; I worked with a vet tec who had her dogs (2 six yr old pointers) on some heavy meds for SA. We did a session and found out her dogs weren't getting their needs met., She started doing what needed to be done, and the dogs are no longer medicated. Until the "professional" working with the dogs has all the facts, the issue cannot be resolved. But the sad truth for most owners is, their dogs don't need to be medicated, they need what they need as dogs. Imagine that.

I agree that the percentage of dogs that actually need medication shrinks when the dog's needs are met.  The problem is that we trainers may have the time or the inclination to try to repair the dog, but owners are often less motivated (not talking about the dognerds like us []).  I find that, especially if the dog is destructive, or the person is facing eviction because of the dog's barking or whining, then they are much less likely to pursue a course of behavior modification that doesn't produce a quick fix, and true SA is not a quick fix situation.  So, the dog gets relinquished, the guilty owner never tells the shelter, some shelter worker feels bad and adopts the dog out again, and the cycle is not only repeated, it worsens.  And, the sad thing is that for every SA dog that gets adopted out, shelters get a bad rap, and a good dog with no behavior problems may end up in the dead bin.  I am astonished at how many of the people in my classes don't rescue - and when I ask, the number one reason they give is that someone they know did, and ended up with a "damaged" dog.  While I know that most dogs can be fixed, the public doesn't want to do the fixing - they want Lassie.

Thanks espencer,
 
It is a lot to ask for a detail description.  You have been very helpful.  I will call and find out which season the 2 episodes were aired and then order the dvds.
 
David

I believe that using meds to calm a dog should be used as a last resort so the dog doesn't lose it's home. SA is so common in rescue/shelter dogs and it's up to the owners to help the dog overcome this. I posted some advise about how to get a dog accustomed to being left alone and I can attest to the fact that it works for the most part. In almost all cases I have come across, it's usually the owners who are fueling the fire in these dogs. They feel so guilty about leaving the dog especially when the dog is making a fuss. As CM said, dogs develop behavioral problems when we attempt to humanize them.(dogs). If left on their own, dogs do just fine.

I also think one thing to keep in mind is a lot of the time what people call SA is just the dog's needs not being met. It seems like every time someone comes home and finds their slipper chewed up, they immediately scream "SA!" That kind of "SA" can certainly be "cured" through greater exercise, mental stimulation, training, and some kind of confinement, as well as some basic counterconditioning to the people leaving (I'm sure that almost every pet dog out there could use some of this--it's a weird thing that we ask of them, to be home alone so much, even for the most well-adjusted dog).

But the real kind? It's heartbreaking and extremely difficult for anyone to deal with, no matter how much they love their dog and try to meet the dog's needs. When we first got Conrad, we lived way out in the country and we literally went walking together for miles, and swam and fetched sticks in the water for an hour at a time (we lived on the beach). He could be panting dead-tired when we got home but as soon as I'd leave the house he'd have a complete psychotic break with reality. I'm really highly skeptical of anyone who claims that you can 'cure' SA through just more exercise and being "calm and assertive". If you can solve the problem that way, my guess is that it wasn't really SA to begin with, just a bored, lonely, undertrained dog.

I do remember seeing an episode way back when (first season maybe?) where a woman who was recently divorced had moved to a condo with her dog and the dog was barking nonstop whenever she left the house. What was recommended were more walks and I can't really remember anything else being talked about. Just more exercise and for the woman to be "calm and assertive" and not "spoil" the dog (she felt guilty moving with the dog because of the divorce, which I'm sure was a factor). At the end of the episode the narrator guy said that they were still working through it. Okay, well, to me that sort of said "not an effective plan". And I think that was the first time that I thought, "Hm, maybe this guy doesn't know everything" (I used to be a huge fan). Because I know from my own experience that if you're going to call something Seperation Anxiety in the clinical sense, it is not going to be "cured" just through a daily walk and you having some kind of mystical calming energy.

But a bored, lonely, underexercised, understimulated dog, certainly, might be improved through more exercise and more NILIF at home, and more training.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

I also think one thing to keep in mind is a lot of the time what people call SA is just the dog's needs not being met. It seems like every time someone comes home and finds their slipper chewed up, they immediately scream "SA!" That kind of "SA" can certainly be "cured" through greater exercise, mental stimulation, training, and some kind of confinement, as well as some basic counterconditioning to the people leaving (I'm sure that almost every pet dog out there could use some of this--it's a weird thing that we ask of them, to be home alone so much, even for the most well-adjusted dog).

But the real kind? It's heartbreaking and extremely difficult for anyone to deal with, no matter how much they love their dog and try to meet the dog's needs. When we first got Conrad, we lived way out in the country and we literally went walking together for miles, and swam and fetched sticks in the water for an hour at a time (we lived on the beach). He could be panting dead-tired when we got home but as soon as I'd leave the house he'd have a complete psychotic break with reality. I'm really highly skeptical of anyone who claims that you can 'cure' SA through just more exercise and being "calm and assertive". If you can solve the problem that way, my guess is that it wasn't really SA to begin with, just a bored, lonely, undertrained dog.

I do remember seeing an episode way back when (first season maybe?) where a woman who was recently divorced had moved to a condo with her dog and the dog was barking nonstop whenever she left the house. What was recommended were more walks and I can't really remember anything else being talked about. Just more exercise and for the woman to be "calm and assertive" and not "spoil" the dog (she felt guilty moving with the dog because of the divorce, which I'm sure was a factor). At the end of the episode the narrator guy said that they were still working through it. Okay, well, to me that sort of said "not an effective plan". And I think that was the first time that I thought, "Hm, maybe this guy doesn't know everything" (I used to be a huge fan). Because I know from my own experience that if you're going to call something Seperation Anxiety in the clinical sense, it is not going to be "cured" just through a daily walk and you having some kind of mystical calming energy.

But a bored, lonely, underexercised, understimulated dog, certainly, might be improved through more exercise and more NILIF at home, and more training.

 
Nobody said that you can solve the problem right away, especially CM says that, the lady still was working on it for that same reason, CM never claims a quick fix, also we have to consider if the lady really was following the directions correctly after they taped the episode, the lady didnt have any experience at all so it will take even longer for her to rehabilitate the dog
 
Also just like aggression there are different levels of SA, does not has to be only when the dog was excercised and still presents the problem, some of them can be cured only by excersice and some other would take more to work with
 
Maybe you had one of the worse cases, but like i said, just as aggression is not only when the dog ended attacking a person
 
I dont know if you are misunderstanding this "mystical" energy, i think that you well know he is not talking about sendin some kind of "cosmical vibes" taken from ancient indians, you really well know that he talks about calm "energy" because that what you "project" when you have it, you can call it calm and assertive attitude so you are not confused

When I use the term SA, I am referring to the real deal, as houndlove points out.  Dogs that are unsure, or underexercised, or a little clingy, are not the dogs that customarily need medication to get them by.  But, the ones that have full blown SA can literally destroy your house, struggle until they bleed, or severely damage themselves trying to escape confinement, or panic and get lost.  They are extremely difficult to deal with, and most JQP's don't have the knowledge, time, or redecorating budget...
SA is a term that is thrown around way too much to describe dogs that whine in their crates, or follow their owners to the bathroom.  Real SA dogs are making their gums bleed in an effort to get out of the crate, or chewing through the drywall.  Not the same thing.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

When I use the term SA, I am referring to the real deal, as houndlove points out.  Dogs that are unsure, or underexercised, or a little clingy, are not the dogs that customarily need medication to get them by.  But, the ones that have full blown SA can literally destroy your house, struggle until they bleed, or severely damage themselves trying to escape confinement, or panic and get lost.  They are extremely difficult to deal with, and most JQP's don't have the knowledge, time, or redecorating budget...
SA is a term that is thrown around way too much to describe dogs that whine in their crates, or follow their owners to the bathroom.  Real SA dogs are making their gums bleed in an effort to get out of the crate, or chewing through the drywall.  Not the same thing.

 
So aggressive dogs should also be the ones that only kill people? if they are not killers they cant be lable as aggressive? only killer dogs are "the real deal"?

So aggressive dogs should also be the ones that only kill people? if they are not killers they cant be lable as aggressive? only killer dogs are "the real deal"?

 
Not at all.
 
But there is a difference between clinical SA, which may be genetically predisposed, and causes severe panic in the dog; versus just a bored dog who is entertaining itself in a destructive way.

Think of it as the difference between "feeling blue" and being clinically, suicidally depressed. People say all the time "oh, I'm depressed" but when a psychiatrists talks about clinical depression, that's a whole other deal.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Think of it as the difference between "feeling blue" and being clinically, suicidally depressed. People say all the time "oh, I'm depressed" but when a psychiatrists talks about clinical depression, that's a whole other deal.

Doctors often mistakenly diagnos bi-polar patients as being clinically depressed and prescribe the wrong series of medications. Anxiety is also an altogether different condition.

How many vets actually can go into a home and know enough about dog behavior and psychology to do the diagnosis themselves? They don't. They rely on second hand information from the owner or a trainer who has little or no understanding of how to do a DVM diagnosis.

DVM's are also "general" practitioners who probably don't specialise in this area. Each vet is only human and how do we know if they've educated themselves to also specialise in this area. We don't.

I will be sure and ask my vet about this as I think this is a very interesting and important topic. .

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

When I use the term SA, I am referring to the real deal, as houndlove points out.  Dogs that are unsure, or underexercised, or a little clingy, are not the dogs that customarily need medication to get them by.  But, the ones that have full blown SA can literally destroy your house, struggle until they bleed, or severely damage themselves trying to escape confinement, or panic and get lost.  They are extremely difficult to deal with, and most JQP's don't have the knowledge, time, or redecorating budget...
SA is a term that is thrown around way too much to describe dogs that whine in their crates, or follow their owners to the bathroom.  Real SA dogs are making their gums bleed in an effort to get out of the crate, or chewing through the drywall.  Not the same thing.

So aggressive dogs should also be the ones that only kill people? if they are not killers they cant be lable as aggressive? only killer dogs are "the real deal"?

Not at all.  Certainly, aggression does manifest itself by degree, however.  The dog that gives a warning bite, not breaking skin, is not as dangerous as the dog that takes multiple bites up your arm and they all require sutures.  (Google Bite-o-meter)  Anxiety occurs on a continuum, too, but most behaviorists refer to SA dogs as the ones with the propensity to damage property or themselves.  That doesn't mean that no one cares about prevention of SA, or that dogs at risk for full blown SA shouldn't receive behavioral modification, but that many of them can be treated or rehabbed, if you will, without the extensive and lengthy protocols that apply to "true" SA dogs, possibly including the use of medications.  It's just terminology that gets us hung up, I think. 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Not at all.  Certainly, aggression does manifest itself by degree, however.  The dog that gives a warning bite, not breaking skin, is not as dangerous as the dog that takes multiple bites up your arm and they all require sutures.  (Google Bite-o-meter)  Anxiety occurs on a continuum, too, but most behaviorists refer to SA dogs as the ones with the propensity to damage property or themselves.  That doesn't mean that no one cares about prevention of SA, or that dogs at risk for full blown SA shouldn't receive behavioral modification, but that many of them can be treated or rehabbed, if you will, without the extensive and lengthy protocols that apply to "true" SA dogs, possibly including the use of medications.  It's just terminology that gets us hung up, I think. 

 
So like i said, SA also have different degrees, "true SA" as you name it being the worse one, therefore not because is not the highest level of SA that means the dog does not have it or the professional "does not know what he is saying"

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Not at all.  Certainly, aggression does manifest itself by degree, however.  The dog that gives a warning bite, not breaking skin, is not as dangerous as the dog that takes multiple bites up your arm and they all require sutures.  (Google Bite-o-meter)  Anxiety occurs on a continuum, too, but most behaviorists refer to SA dogs as the ones with the propensity to damage property or themselves.  That doesn't mean that no one cares about prevention of SA, or that dogs at risk for full blown SA shouldn't receive behavioral modification, but that many of them can be treated or rehabbed, if you will, without the extensive and lengthy protocols that apply to "true" SA dogs, possibly including the use of medications.  It's just terminology that gets us hung up, I think. 

So like i said, SA also have different degrees, "true SA" as you name it being the worse one, therefore not because is not the highest level of SA that means the dog does not have it or the professional "does not know what he is saying"

I see where you are going with this, but I still don't think that boredom is the same thing as SA.  Do we at least agree on that?   I mean, if you have a bored dog, and you give him something to do, he stops causing a problem.  But, the SA dog may still damage himself or his surroundings, even if he has lots to do, as soon as he is left alone.