Cesar, black GSD and E-Collar

ORIGINAL: houndlove She suggested that he seriously physically harmed her dog (while she watched, but not on camera) in order to make it seem like he'd performed a miraculous cure.

This is becoming quite the CM bashing thread they all turn into. #1. That's called hear say. #2. Were's the proof? Anyone can claim anything, or did you not know that when you posted this. It's sad to watch people spread rumors around that they have no proof of, other than, so and so said so.

I'll just add this. Common sense says with all the dogs this guy has worked with, if he's harming them "off camera" (Bahahahaha) something that goes completely against what he believes in, SOMEBODY would have some type of proof, *on film*. Cameras are everywhere. So where's the proof??? Come on, let's see it.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Disclaimer: I am not saying this is true actual fact. It could just as easily be a half-truth, untruth or hoax as anything else on the internet. But, it is something that is out there, I've seen it more than once, and it is germane to this thread.
 

 
No, what is "out there" is this inflamatory hearsay post. The disclaimer should say "I know I shouldn't post this but I can't help myself so here goes". [:'(]
 

ORIGINAL: houndlove

On dogster (and this person has a dogster account, was not a guest and is not as far as I can tell a "sock puppet" account) and also on comments regarding a newspaper article online (that was linked to dogster so I can see how this same person came to comment on both) I read an account of a person who did have Cesar come to train their dog, a couple years ago. And this person says that there was quite a bit that he did off-camera or when not filming that is never mentioned on the show and would definately be considered even more controversial than what makes it on air. She suggested that he seriously physically harmed her dog (while she watched, but not on camera) in order to make it seem like he'd performed a miraculous cure.

Anyway, take that as you will. I definatley suspect that Cesar has some kind of non-disclosure agreement with the people who are on his show. He'd be an idiot not to and most reality shows do have something like this. It kind of comes with the reality-show territory.

 

Speculation, hearsay, and bs. That original "I heard this" oster could have been just another extremist forum troll with an agenda. [8D]

I also "heard" on one forum that Brenda Aloff hangs dogs. Wanna run with that one too? []

Speculation, hearsay, and bs. That original "I heard this" poster could have been just another extremist forum troll with an agenda.

I dug some more, at one point the American Humane Association started putting pressure on NGC to get "The dog whisperer" off the air, claiming CMs methods are inhumane blah blah blah. My guess is that they were looking for free publicity, and CM was their target of choice. Anyways, several legitimate sites posted an interview with a person from this association, and this guy mentions the whole e-collar thing. So, questionable as these people's statements may be, I find it too much of a coincidence that this was pointed out from two different sources. This American Humane Association, is not to be confused with the American Humane Society.

As far as me being "another extremist forum troll with an agenda", well, I'm not an extremist either way; not sure what a forum troll is, but I doubt I qualify as one; and I'm not sure what agenda I could possibly have. I was simply asking if anyone had noticed, and if so, what was the thinking behind not explaining in full what they were doing. I think those are legitimate, non-bashing/baiting questions.

ORIGINAL: eley

Speculation, hearsay, and bs. That original "I heard this" oster could have been just another extremist forum troll with an agenda.

I dug some more, at one point the American Humane Association started putting pressure on NGC to get "The dog whisperer" off the air, claiming CMs methods are inhumane blah blah blah. My guess is that they were looking for free publicity, and CM was their target of choice.
 

 
They are not the only ones in the public eye looking for attention and publicity through negativity towards Cesar and his show.

ORIGINAL: eley

As far as me being "another extremist forum troll with an agenda", well, I'm not an extremist either way; not sure what a forum troll is, but I doubt I qualify as one; and I'm not sure what agenda I could possibly have. I was simply asking if anyone had noticed, and if so, what was the thinking behind not explaining in full what they were doing. I think those are legitimate, non-bashing/baiting questions.

 
LOL! I wasn't referring to you at all, eley! You are very balanced and objective in your views. Sorry if you thought I meant you! []
 
I was refering to whoever wrote the original post that houndlove was reading on another site.
 
A forum troll is someone who just enters a forum to bait, cause trouble, and throw the discussions off-topic. []

ORIGINAL: eley

Speculation, hearsay, and bs. That original "I heard this" oster could have been just another extremist forum troll with an agenda.

I dug some more, at one point the American Humane Association started putting pressure on NGC to get "The dog whisperer" off the air, claiming CMs methods are inhumane blah blah blah. My guess is that they were looking for free publicity, and CM was their target of choice. Anyways, several legitimate sites posted an interview with a person from this association, and this guy mentions the whole e-collar thing. So, questionable as these people's statements may be, I find it too much of a coincidence that this was pointed out from two different sources. This American Humane Association, is not to be confused with the American Humane Society.

Isn't it AMAZING what we find when we actually look. A coincident, is not, a fact.

 Angelique

I'll get back to you later about the e-collar stuff.

Without any kind of real basis or solid proof, you have to take the nasty rumours and hearsay and the apparent "miraculous cures" with a large barrel of salt.  Of course stuff is going to happen off camera that will never make the final cut.  And it's reasonable and even likely that what they show will be the least contraversial stuff, to avoid inflaming the "antis" even more and to avoid exposing the pubic to some potentially dangerous techniques.  Number one thing to remember - it's a TV show and therefore heavily subject to marketing and editing.  Just have that salt handy, whichever side of the fence you sit on.

I don't know what you read about the e collar eley, but we all know he has used them and they have there place.  I don't beleive that he "secretly" uses them without showing them or editing them out of his show, that was my point - because that would be wrong.   If he uses them at all shouldn't be a question we know he does, at times.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Without any kind of real basis or solid proof, you have to take the nasty rumours and hearsay and the apparent "miraculous cures" with a large barrel of salt.  Of course stuff is going to happen off camera that will never make the final cut.  And it's reasonable and even likely that what they show will be the least contraversial stuff, to avoid inflaming the "antis" even more and to avoid exposing the pubic to some potentially dangerous techniques.  Number one thing to remember - it's a TV show and therefore heavily subject to marketing and editing.  Just have that salt handy, whichever side of the fence you sit on.

 
Oh well even with all the editing when i do it with my dogs it wroks perfect, that means that is not a big chunk of show (or technique) what i'm missing (or that important anyways)

ORIGINAL: espencer

Oh well even with all the editing when i do it with my dogs it wroks perfect, that means that is not a big chunk of show (or technique) what i'm missing (or that important anyways)

 
Ditto. []
 
Thirteen years of using a similar philosophy before I ever saw Cesar's show, tells me the same thing.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Without any kind of real basis or solid proof, you have to take the nasty rumours and hearsay and the apparent "miraculous cures" with a large barrel of salt.  Of course stuff is going to happen off camera that will never make the final cut.  And it's reasonable and even likely that what they show will be the least contraversial stuff, to avoid inflaming the "antis" even more and to avoid exposing the pubic to some potentially dangerous techniques.  Number one thing to remember - it's a TV show and therefore heavily subject to marketing and editing.  Just have that salt handy, whichever side of the fence you sit on.

Oh well even with all the editing when i do it with my dogs it wroks perfect, that means that is not a big chunk of show (or technique) what i'm missing (or that important anyways)

I am sure when deciding what makes the cut, how relevant it is is considered.  Besides, he handles a lot of volatile dogs.  Most of us don't.  It follows that the least "harsh" methods will be fine for most people and more harsh ones (possibly off screen) won't be.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

I am sure when deciding what makes the cut, how relevant it is is considered.  Besides, he handles a lot of volatile dogs.  Most of us don't.  It follows that the least "harsh" methods will be fine for most people and more harsh ones (possibly off screen) won't be.

And people should know that if they have "volatile" dogs they should not do it themselves, thats why they have a disclaimer, so is the same, not volatile = maybe i can do it myself (and it works) volatile = ask for professional help (just like the show says)

So in any case the people does not loose at all by watching

Since you and me cant really be there when the cameras are off then we can only speculate and speculation brings a lot of "what if" that dont exist

I can bring a lot of speculation about clicker training that maybe some trainers dont want you to see, "but i do it and it works with my dog" you would say, well then you are now in my place about CM []

It looks like we completely agree.  Nothing wrong with a bit of speculation, either way..... provided you take it all, as I said before, with a nice helping of salt.  Speculation in itself isn't all bad.... better than blindly believing everything you read/hear/see on TV.  That doesn't equate to being closed minded.  Just to keeping your eyes open and trying to extrapolate intelligently.

ORIGINAL: Angelique
I also "heard" on one forum that Brenda Aloff hangs dogs. Wanna run with that one too? []

Well, Angelique, I have never seen her do it, but when you think how old Brenda is, and how long she's been dealing with terriers, you really don't know whether it's true or not.  I think what people need to realize is that dog training has evolved a lot over the last several decades, and some people have maintained their original methods, while some have pursued new ones.  I suspect that she has pursued new ones.  Her puppy tape uses lure/reward, not clicker.  To each his own.

FYI, espencer, the Gentle Spray is the automatic no bark collar that uses citronella.  Premier makes that collar, and they also make the Spray Commander, which works similarly to an e-collar, but it dispenses citronella by means of a remote control, rather than a shock.   Thanks for bringing that up, as they are different, and the SC might be something that some folks would like to try before, or in lieu of, the e-collar.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: Angelique
I also "heard" on one forum that Brenda Aloff hangs dogs. Wanna run with that one too? []

Well, Angelique, I have never seen her do it, but when you think how old Brenda is, and how long she's been dealing with terriers, you really don't know whether it's true or not.  I think what people need to realize is that dog training has evolved a lot over the last several decades, and some people have maintained their original methods, while some have pursued new ones.  I suspect that she has pursued new ones.  Her puppy tape uses lure/reward, not clicker.  To each his own.

I was only using the comments I read about Brenda to make a point. Perhaps she was dealing with an out of control dog and only lifted it's front end off of the ground. Perhaps like many trainers there was a time when she used a more severe interaction or a correction where she saw it was appropriate, and someone blew it out of proportion. It really doesn't matter. I've read some of her work and know that she is an honest lover of dogs who learns and grows through experience...the same as the rest of us...the same as Cesar.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

FYI, espencer, the Gentle Spray is the automatic no bark collar that uses citronella.  Premier makes that collar, and they also make the Spray Commander, which works similarly to an e-collar, but it dispenses citronella by means of a remote control, rather than a shock.   Thanks for bringing that up, as they are different, and the SC might be something that some folks would like to try before, or in lieu of, the e-collar.

Speaking from general ignorance with these devices, but with an understanding of the canine nose which is like 1000 times greater than our own, I have a problem with a corrective device which leaves a lingering reminder of the correction.

JMO []