Boerboel

Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this dog being a gift!

You are correct it was her manager.
I wish that someone had mentioned what you just said, about not being able to handle all breeds and then just thrown in about giving puppies as a gift.

Perfect! Why is it so hard for some people to see that?

 
Because the breed they want is so....  cool/tough/cute/tiny/huge/rare/different/etc. Ugh!

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

Perfect! Why is it so hard for some people to see that?

Because the breed they want is so....  cool/tough/cute/tiny/huge/rare/different/etc. Ugh!

Ugh is right. My neighbor suddenly decided to get two GSDs. You could just see the ego in the thought process and the perfect image he had in his head of these two beautiful dogs resting quietly in his front yard like a couple of lawn ornaments. He was not dog-owner material to begin with, but he definately picked the wrong breed as his status symbol!

It ended up being a long, sad story. The dogs were never walked, barked all night, chased deer, and finally bit a few neighbors. They ended up giving the dogs away.

You are correct it was her manager.
I wish that someone had mentioned what you just said, about not being able to handle all breeds and then just thrown in about giving puppies as a gift.

 
It would have been nice to hear Cesar say something along those lines.  But, I bet my life he's not allowed to due to it being judgemental in nature, possibly offensive to P.LB and her manager, etc.....  Wonder if deep down inside he wanted to scream that at her and her manager??  I just hope she learned her lesson about undertaking a dog! 

ORIGINAL: ron2
Always allowing a dog to choose is not providing leadership but allowing the faults of the dog to define the environment.

I guess I only partially agree with this.  Granted, no one should allow a dog to be aggressive or endanger anyone, but  I want to condition my dogs to choose their behavior correctly, so I try to set them up for success in every training exercise.  I want them to default to the correct response because they realize that it is rewarding to do so.  To do that, it's also important for them to realize that they get nothing for being incorrect, or obnoxious.  I think that "dominance" by humans is often forced (and I don't mean that in the +P sense necessarily).  I want the kind of passive submission that is naturally granted by the dog to a leader. I think that part of why any behaviorist or trainer succeeds is that they have the innate ability to project leadership status to dogs in ways dogs understand.  But, when I see a dog submit to a true leader, I hardly ever see fear - I see simple appeasement, an acknowledgement of status.  

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Are you saying that you would assume that because one positive trainer (whose credentials or abilities we know nothing about) failed with a particular dog, that somehow that is an indictment against positive training as a methodology?

Nope, AND! I knew you'd say that. I simply pointed out that someone using R+ training, AND! had three years to do so couldn't get the job done. Why? Because some people (including trainers) don't understand the difference between OBT and behavior. And R+ training *will not* work with or in every case.

Oh Anne was talking about your comment? i thought about mine, Anne i want my treat back []

I was talking to you, espencer.  Can I keep my treat? []

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I was talking to you, espencer.  Can I keep my treat? []

Yes you can, i am sure is all chewed already and full of drool, yuck [:'(]

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I was talking to you, espencer.  Can I keep my treat? []

Yes you can, i am sure is all chewed already and full of drool, yuck [:'(]

Shhlurp! [sm=wink3.gif]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I was talking to you, espencer.  Can I keep my treat? []

Yes you can, i am sure is all chewed already and full of drool, yuck [:'(]

Shhlurp! [sm=wink3.gif]

Ha-ha-ha! Too funny! []

Better have a higher value item if you want yer goodie back spence! []

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: ron2
Always allowing a dog to choose is not providing leadership but allowing the faults of the dog to define the environment.

I guess I only partially agree with this.  Granted, no one should allow a dog to be aggressive or endanger anyone, but  I want to condition my dogs to choose their behavior correctly, so I try to set them up for success in every training exercise.  I want them to default to the correct response because they realize that it is rewarding to do so.  To do that, it's also important for them to realize that they get nothing for being incorrect, or obnoxious.

I guess I partially agree. The problem with that is, it doesn't work with every dog in every situation. A dog that has a high drive and feels rewarded by it's actions, is not going to care about *your* reward.

I think that "dominance" by humans is often forced (and I don't mean that in the +P sense necessarily).

What does that mean???

I want the kind of passive submission that is naturally granted by the dog to a leader.

Um, if you watch dogs, leadership not just "granted" it's owned. and dogs own it by sometimes dishing out discipline to pack members. They don't then pounder over how the pack member feels about the correction. Happy go lucky dogs *might* "grant" you "passive submission", but a high drive working dog, not so much.

I think that part of why any behaviorist or trainer succeeds is that they have the innate ability to project leadership status to dogs in ways dogs understand.

I must agree.

But, when I see a dog submit to a true leader, I hardly ever see fear - I see simple appeasement, an acknowledgement of status.

A "true leader" that's subject to opinion. Perhaps it's just the type of dogs you work with and you just see what you want to see.

And what is the nature of dogs?   

BTW anyone thinking that I'm being out of line with spiritdogs, I'm not, I'm stating *my opinion* in a open forum. I wasn't the one that decided to start pm-ing to continue some bs. That's something someone does when, well, you know. 

That's sad. I mean there are a lot of breeds that DH and I would love to have, but we know they're not right for us. You have to make the responsible decision with these types of choices. I love huskies, but I don't want to deal with serious dog-Houdini issues. I love Shiba Inus, but the stubborness would frustrate me to no end. Everyone's different. Someone who sees a Boerboel and goes "ooooh a rare African breed that's cool looking" needs to look a little harder at their ability to meet the dog's needs.

 
I always say that is where personal responsibility needs to kick in, but, I know......wishful thinking...

 "guess I partially agree. The problem with that is, it doesn't work with every dog in every situation. A dog that has a high drive and feels rewarded by it's actions, is not going to care about *your* reward."  Awesome dog.

Respectful point of clarification. 

It is a common problem that people misinterpret what positive reinforcement is.  It is not a treat, or a toy, or a pet, or praise in and of itself.  It is only positive based on the impact it has on behavior.

If an animal is continuing a behavior then something in the environment or in the animal itself is supporting the maintainance of that behavior.

I would suggest that just because a technique has been inappropriately used by someone, does not mean the technology is at fault.  Any individual has the potential to "do it wrong".  Many of the problems that get posted on the board involve just that situation.

It is just as easy to do leadership strategies wrong as it is to do applied behavior analysis.  It is all about observation and timing. 

It is a common problem that people misinterpret what positive reinforcement is. It is not a treat, or a toy, or a pet, or praise in an of itself. It is only positive based on the impact it has on behavior.

 
So true. It's not positive reinforcement if it's not working. People often say "+R doesn't work for my dog because there are more interesting things to him than the treat I'm holding". Than you're not doing +R! Pick a reward that does impact their behavior. I think Ed uses squirrel-chasing or some variant of that as a reward for his dogs. They are drivey, they love chasing prey, and that can be used in exchange for the behavior he wants. Sorry Ed if I'm confused there or thinking of someone else. I'm pretty sure you had mentioned that at some point.

ORIGINAL: mrv

 I would suggest that just because a technique has been inappropriately used by someone, does not mean the technology is at fault.  Any individual has the potential to "do it wrong".  Many of the problems that get posted on the board involve just that situation.

 
And the same goes for the different techniques that are not +R []