Why?

When you were posting this something else popped out. I think the reference to "Positive Trainer" only, makes one feel that one who applies any of CM's methods, one would be the "Negative " trainer. It happens automatically, and puts some of us, including me, on a self defense platform.

 
That's a great observation and also shows the power that words have. 

Sorry, I'm not going to answer the original question since I'm not in the mood for arguing about CM today[]. But I would like to say, I think part of the reason temperatures get so hot in here is that there are some members who post in CM but have not posted in any other area of the board, meaning they have not become a part of the 'community' here in any way. We haven't heard cute anecdotes about their lives, we haven't seen photos of their dogs, we haven't discussed movies or doggie biscuits or really anything besides CM with them. There are definitely some notable exceptions to that. But for those that haven't fully engaged, I think it becomes easier for the board regulars to dehumanize them AND for them to dehumanize us, and just go to war. There's the perception that they are here to antagonize, and that were are here to stonewall. Maybe if we could all get to know each other better we could argue without 'fighting.' [sm=2cents.gif]

jones, you make a really good point.  It's harder to discount ideas and methodologies of those when you hear about their struggles and how they overcame them.  In addition, becoming part of a community-even if web based-can be a powerful thing. 

I think the key is: you feel identified with him, with what he is doing

If i was into teaching commands to my dog i would feel identified with a "teaching commands" TV show, people doesnt know that teaching commands can help you to have a well behaved dog, they think they are just for your dog to entertain guests

But most of the population with dogs just have the dogs "as is", before the show they didnt know that they were able to change the dog and the way they were behaving, they thought the dogs were that way because their personality, "well my dog is a jumper because thats the way he is, if i teach him commands he will be a jumper with tricks" since they dont know that dogs can change then is for sure that they will be having some kind of bad behavior and thats why the show reaches more demographic

CM came and said "hey you can change that bad behavior, you know?"

People that teaches commands to their dogs already knew that was possible but thanks to the TV CM let everyone else (the rest) who didnt know that it could be done

They watched the TV show wondering if some day CM could have a dog with the same problem their dog was having, while they were waiting for their "turn" they got hooked

CM was for those people an "eye opener", for some people who already was having dogs knowing commands there was nothing special about it, they already did it themselves and in their own way

If they were teaching their dogs some commands and then they find out a TV show like CM's they could be like "oh ok he just does it differently" but since they didnt know they could change their dog's behavior then when they saw the show it was like a slap in the face, they turned from black to white in a second, the impact was stronger

American people is into time, fast food, drive thrus (i never knew that even banks have those untill i got to USA), faster internet speeds, less wait the better, etc. Even when is true that CM methods are not a quick fix at least you can see results right away and for the people thats enough

So you feel identified because you have a dog with bad behavior, its an eye opener because that gives you hopes that your dog can change and you can see progress right away, what a combo that is for the people!!! CM "helped them" with their dog's bad behavior (the fact of doing it without consulting a professional first is another different topic) and they have an enternal gratitude with the guy who "helped" them to resolve that "nightmare"

In my case he is also Mexican []

......"Simple" is the best way I can describe it.

 
I agree with that.  For me, I like CM because he helps people see their dogs in a simpler way.  He helps them use common sense.  He helps them see that they are doing a disservice to their pets by treating them like human children.  He helps them pick up on basic doggy language, and give their dogs what THEY need rather than what the human needs.
 
You can read more intellectually stimulating books on behavior, but most people will get lost in the language and science of it all, and it can be quite "dry" reading.  Big turn-off for lots of people. 
 
He may be classified as "old school", but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing all the way around.  For instance, parenting in the 90's and 2000's has been the demise of old fashioned parenting.  I for one think that's a bad thing!  The lack of respect some kids have today is evident of this new, permissive parenting style and constant focusing on self esteem.  We forgot common sense  values and it shows, IMO.  *****I am NOT saying that +R training is "permissive"!!!********
 
Cesar is passionate about what he does and it shows.  It makes him very watchable, likeable and I usually learn something from him.       

He may be classified as "old school", but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing all the way around. For instance, parenting in the 90's and 2000's has been the demise of old fashioned parenting. I for one think that's a bad thing! The lack of respect some kids have today is evident of this new, permissive parenting style and constant focusing on self esteem. We forgot common sense values and it shows, IMO.

 
I couldn't agree with you more........

I was a child during the old fashioned parenting days.

Some parents took it to mean they could do anything to the child, whenever, and without consequences. And did just that.  And absolutely nothing could be done about it.  No by family, friends, and definitely not by the children themselves.

A few of my friends from 'good families' lived a life of hell due to this philosophy.

ORIGINAL: JM

I was a child during the old fashioned parenting days.

Some parents took it to mean they could do anything to the child, whenever, and without consequences. And did just that.  And absolutely nothing could be done about it.  No by family, friends, and definitely not by the children themselves.

A few of my friends from 'good families' lived a life of hell due to this philosophy.

 
Off Topic []

They brought it up, I provided a counterpoint.  Sue me. ;-P

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: JM

I was a child during the old fashioned parenting days.

Some parents took it to mean they could do anything to the child, whenever, and without consequences. And did just that.  And absolutely nothing could be done about it.  No by family, friends, and definitely not by the children themselves.

A few of my friends from 'good families' lived a life of hell due to this philosophy.

Off Topic []

ORIGINAL: JM

They brought it up, I provided a counterpoint.  Sue me. ;-P

 
Still Off Topic (revenge from the "tease espencer" days [])

To answer Anne's question, I have a couple of possibilities.

He's on TV, plain and simple. To some people that's more than enough, "if he's on TV it must be because he's good at what he does, that must be the reason he has his own show and other trainers don't". Also CM has done for dog training/behaviour what remodeling shows have done for home improvement, Emeril and whoever else has done for cooking, demistify it and put it with in everybody's reach.

The fact that he learned thru experience and not thru academia makes a lot of people comfortable with him. Lets face it, a degree/certification/title, in something IS intimidating for some people, and they go into it with the predisposition that they are not going to understand what they are being told, or that they will be belittled by someone (sometimes they are right sometimes they are wrong).

His delivery, CM presents things in layman terms, he doesn't use terms like "possitive re-inforcement", "learned helplesness" or whatever three dollar words you learn in school to describe something that can be said in plain english (or whatever it is you speak). He is able to present things in terms of the people he's working with, in a way that really sticks, he related a pack leader to GOD to a family of christians; he related calm assertiveness in the way a patient should be treated to a nurse, etc. and lets face it, the guy is charismatic as hell, whether you love him or hate him, you can't help but to pay attention to him.

A lot of what he teaches stems from thing we either knew already or had a vague idea, so as someone said in another thread, he develops and validates some of the things we intuitively know. And EVERYBODY loves being right, so if someone says something that makes you think "I thought it was something along those lines", well, you feel pretty darn good about yourself.

The saying "in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king" comes to mind in these situations, now, I'm not saying CM is better or worse than anyone out there, I'm saying that some people simply don't know who/what else is out there besides CM. For some, CM is the sole source of information as far as dogs go.

A lot of times it is not so much about what you're selling, it's about HOW you sell it.


By the way, these are the reasons I think apply to the "CM fundamentalists", not ALL of his fans.

I think academics do make some people uncomfortable. Especially in this decade.

"The fact that he learned thru experience and not thru academia makes a lot of people comfortable with him"

As a teacher I'll tell you right off that there are a lot of people out there who had very bad experiences in school and approach anyone who is either an educator or who has a lot of education as if they are the enemy. I absolutely understand this as a reflex, but it really doesn't do anyone any favors. But you get a lot of parents coming in to your parent-teachers meetings who right off the bat are hostile to all teachers. They felt intimidated while in school and now they want to turn that around onto you, usually to the detriment of their own child who needs help.

Anti-intellectualism is alive and well in the U.S. Geez, look who our president is. His entire "appeal" is that he's "just a regular guy" and not an over-educated egg-head. *shrug*

I love how peoples' appreciation and enjoyment of The Dog Whisperer is so often attributed to things like the dumbing down of America, fear of academia, false sense of celebrity friendship, and then they wonder why some people get defensive?!  The only time I really get defensive is when I read something about the show that is greatly exagerated or flat out untrue and more often than not, these claims are made by people that haven't even seen the show.

I agree with what someone said in a previous post; Cesar is what's on TV right now.  He's someone that most of us can watch and discuss.  If Ian Dunbar had a show, I'd be all over his thread as well.

  

There is no need to be defensive over the fact that people like him because he is a charismatic celebrity that they feel they can relate to.  If someone has a degree they might get more recognition and credibility by their peers, but on the downside it does make what they are doing appear to be less accessible by JQP.  Now, I just repeated exactly what you said in your 1st paragraph in different words.... it's all about perception which I think has a lot to do with it - what people think other people are getting at when they state their opinion and thus the level of vehemence in retaliation.
 
Personally, I think the point about validation is bang on.  Cesar's way is simple and it encompasses a little bit of what a lot of people thought was the right way to go and so they pick up on it "hey I thought it was something like that!"  It resonates with people.  They feel they've "got" this instinctively before he ever came along and his ideas are just a more coherent and developed version of their own.  OK so they feel validated, but that's not the whole story - they also feel this is the right way to go, it makes total sense and they believe its best for their pet.  Whether it is or not, well the debate rages and the jury is still out. 
 
Now, compare that to a trainer with all the right credentials with a load of technical and scientific jargon to explain techniques often completely alien to the viewer and which one is going to have success with a show?  I buy a lot of books and they usually have the price on the back in £££s and $$$s - being in the UK, which one do you reckon I instinctively go with and which one do I ignore or pay less attention to?  That's why I think CM inspires people.  Something about him and his ideas resonates with JQP..... he expounds ideas that people are already familiar with and may have already adopted to a greater or lesser degree.  Again, this colours people's perceptions and fires the defensiveness because attacking CMs ideas is attacking theirs as well.  A lot of people see criticism of an idea or technique as criticism of the person using it, or they see any criticism as an attack which is counter productive to discussion.