Why?

I have a thought about why. But I'm afraid that if I express that, it'll come off as offensive, and I wouldn't mean it that way, it would be just me analyzing it. And I'm NOT anti-CM. I have no reason or right to be.

That#%92s and easy answer in my opinion. 
 
All the wonderful other trainers you mention are not talked about, are not in the public eye and not celebrities, if they were their method of choice would be strongly associated with their name.  For example, clicker training would not be thought of as a method per say and instead it would be thought of as “the way Karen Pryor” trains.  If Cesar were never hear of and the rage of celebrity was Karen Pryor the topics would be more on the line of “Did you watch KP last night and see how easy she trained that dog to roll over?”  And then those who find fault in that method would rebut (who would be other trainers most likely) and the devotees to her (her groupies from the show exposure) hair would stand up on end to defend her.  It#%92s quite simple actually.
 
I truly believe that before Cesar most people didn#%92t even know what dog training was and that includes many who participate on this forum, mainly the staunch follower.  Prior to Cesar#%92s awareness, the extent of knowledge or “desire” to have knowledge didn#%92t go any further than rubbing a dogs nose in the pee and throwing them outside to potty train.  But now, because of CM and his celebrity there is a base line that looks like a miracle, because you have to admit it does and therefore a following.  For those who don#%92t investigate and broaden there interest in this area they may never have other opinions.  
 
An interesting topic for a thread would be.  What was your understanding, or interest in dog training BEFORE Cesar Milian?  What methods did you follow?  Where did you get your information from?  Did you go to dog training? Etc.  I think the thread would die early because most people had no exposure except for there own ideas – IMHO.

This is what worries me about this issue, actually.  You shouldn't have to feel that way.  []    And, I would love to have heard your input, since you are one of the members whose opinions I respect, whether they concur with mine or not. 

Although I find him personally fascinating (especially after reading his book), I do believe the media frenzy is part of the issue.  The "instant" fame associated with impact of viewship on NG is one of the factors.  I believe the media can foster a belief of friendship and "closeness" through that "living room" exposure that makes folks feel like part of the "family and friends" in a way that is not real.
 
We often feel we "know" what actors are like based on the characters they have played in the media; maybe we do, maybe we dont.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

What is it about CM that engenders such passion that his devotees (Notice, I'm trying to be nice and didn't say groupies []) cannot seem to bear the least bit of legitimate criticism of him?

"What is it about CM that engenders such passion that" drives his hater's (Notice I trying to be nice and didn't sat *bunch of whiners*) insane, to the point that all they can do sarcastically criticise him. Which is what you some of you actually do.

 

Fisher asked the question on the Whole Dog thread, and I think it's worthy of examination.  What is it about this guy that fosters such, for lack of a better word, religiosity, about his abilities.

People like him, so they talk about him, then people such as your self (who has to "hide what she really feels and wants to say" hum, I wonder what that would be?) who can't don't and won't ever understand him, come around and start bashing, hiding behind false attitudes. Hows that little fact rap around your mind?

I mean, after all, there are so many wonderful trainers and behaviorists out there who are doing wonderful and meaningful work with dogs, even severely aggressive dogs, what's the attraction to CM, and why do people defend him so vociferously?

But seems to escape you and some others (gee I wonder why) is the *simple fact that the people that like him, *like him* they like to talk about his show and how they feel even that has helped him some. So what if they don't want to discuss other trainers, why does that bother some of you so much? Freaky. as far as to the other trainers/PhD beaviorist go.  From what I've seen and heard with my own eyes and ears from them is, *put the dog down, it's to dangerous, and there's to many "good" dogs out there to waste time and energy on this one*.  And to those of you who don't like him and come here with *hidden feelings and agendas and state your questions with undertones of sarcasm*, until you personally have worked with and rehabilitated a aggressive dog. Get over yourselves. Hows that for strat forward.
 

Edited to add:  NO - I am not baiting.  I really want to know, from his staunchest supporters, not what you like about his methods (there are other people who use those methods, after all), but why you feel the need to defend him so emphatically. 

"I'm not baiting"??? REALLY? Ok then, I really want to know from his haters (you know, those who are hiding what they really want to say) why you feel the need to critise a guy who does *nothing but make the world a better place for dogs*.  And you purposely come and do it towards people that LIKE him.  which just really gets under the skin of you haters.

there's no discussion here, and baiting is exactly what this thread is.  How sad.

I think it helps to use a disclaimer when questioning or debating CM's methods.

Like, I like CM and use (or believe) in some of his methods, but...then follow with your observation or question.

This tones down the two B's accusations...baiting and bashing.

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy


An interesting topic for a thread would be.  What was your understanding, or interest in dog training BEFORE Cesar Milian?  What methods did you follow?  Where did you get your information from?  Did you go to dog training? Etc.  I think the thread would die early because most people had no exposure except for there own ideas – IMHO.

That's interesting since I spent years studying dog behavior, doing OBT, then more years with working dogs, and know a alot about what's out there. Long before I even knew Cesar existed my mentor had similar phylosophies, so Cesar's way wasn't all that knew to me.

IMO all this petty bickering (from both sides) would stop, if some of you would simply quit hiding behind *we just really want to know* when your really *hiding your true feelings* and simply wanting to argue with people who like the guy and his methods. And there's nothing wrong with his methods, so just get over it.

Unless their blind, or some of you think people are just stupid, you'd know they see exactly what some of you are up too. and again it's just sad.

I think you may have hit on something here.

His methods have been around for a long time.

So, it very well may be the guy that everyone feels the need to protect/defend.

You have to admit that he is charming, charismatic, and just has a way about him that by passes the average human.

That's interesting since I spent years studying dog behavior, doing OBT, then more years with working dogs, and know a alot about what's out there. Long before I even knew Cesar existed my mentor had similar phylosophies, so Cesar's way wasn't all that knew to me.

 
 
Once again that statement "is not all about you" Awsomedog.[]  See, you are someone who apparently had an opinion before CM.  I believe you are one of few..  Spiritdogs is another who had an opinion before CM too.  That's why you butt heads so eloquently.  You both have two different beliefs. 
 
You could probably have a debate "without" using his specific name.  But for others, there only rebut is to refer to Cesar for reference or tomake a point - there is no personal expierence or personal beleif in one method over another to refer too!  Do you see where I'm coming from????
 
 

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy


Once again that statement "is not all about you" Awsomedog.[]  See, you are someone who apparently had an opinion before CM.  I believe you are one of few..  Spiritdogs is another who had an opinion before CM too.  That's why you butt heads so eloquently.  You both have two different beliefs.

Yes, I know it's not about me, but the question was asked, and I answered for myself. You see?
 

You could probably have a debate "without" using his specific name.  But for others, there only rebut is to refer to Cesar for reference or tomake a point - there is no personal expierence or personal beleif in one method over another to refer too!  Do you see where I'm coming from????

Sort of, however I don't really know what spirit and I would bedate other than the *working with dogs as nature would* because other than that I use some if not a lot of her methods, depending on the type of work I'm doing. I just happen to know for a fact that no one method works for every dog. CM by the way, *uses no one method* (something missed by alot of people) he uses what ever the dog infront of him needs, and the closest to what nature would do. Some people will never get that.
 

Yet another thread that has turned snide and personal and not answering the OP's question.

I'll answer this in a very simple way........he makes it simple, one doesn't have to stack books in one's library to get some basic answers......"Simple" is the best way I can describe it.
 
 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Yet another thread that has turned snide and personal and not answering the OP's question.

Thanks for returning us to the topic at hand.  I really like the point made about the false sense of friendship that develops between the celebrity and the viewers who like him.  I mean, I like Oprah sometimes, not all the time.  And, I even like CM sometimes, not all the time.  But, I easily make the separation between them and my real life.  They aren't coming over for tea any time soon, and they are not my friends. []
I do have a personal bias toward gentle, humane, and dog-friendly training, mostly from my own personal experience that it works, and from the experiences of many of my students (and quite a few of you here, too).  That doesn't mean that I am so squeaky clean positive that I never use a NRM or a correction, but it does mean that I really have to be sure in my mind that I "first do no harm" to the dog I am working with.  Honestly, I am also concerned that I don't get the humans who live with him in trouble either.  But, I will say that some of the members here seem to derive a perverse pleasure out of playing the "gotcha" game, as if one use of a corrective technique somehow makes me their unwilling partner in the things that "really work" and that you "have to do".  Silly, quite silly.  As if the use of a clicker to teach one behavior makes them positive trainers all of a sudden.  What amazes me is the zealousness with which people defend a methodology when they have experience with only one dog or a few dogs.  And, trainers, who should have had experience with hundreds of dogs reject the purely positive out of hand before they have learned to implement it properly.  I guess the two will never meet, but we don't really have to be nasty, do we?

As if the use of a clicker to teach one behavior makes them positive trainers all of a sudden.

 
When you were posting this something else popped out. I think the reference to "Positive Trainer" only, makes one feel that one who applies any of CM's methods, one would be the "Negative " trainer. It happens automatically, and puts some of us, including me, on a self defense platform.
 
I have mentioned several time that I don't agree with all he does, but, I was called a "CM Follower", once again self defense kicks in, so in closing, perhaps it's not so much CM we are defending, maybe more our methods......just a thought....