The Owner's Equipment

Also how much constant clicking does it take for that to lose it value?

 
I think you're missing my point - a click ALWAYS means 'you've done something right, and you're getting a reward now". The word yes or good can mean the same, or it can also mean nothing at all, based on what context we're using it in. I use the word 'yes' in conversation a million times, and the dog gets so used to hearing it in non-reward-based circumstances that it does not spark quite the same reaction as a click, which is isolated for training purposes only.
 

But that's you, that's your dogs, not the rest of the dog training world. And while you disagree, your simply staing your opinion, not a fact.

 
Sure, all I can report is my own experience. And same goes for you - I don't see your opinions on clickers reflected much in the dog training world either. Here are some examples, written by people more experienced in dog training than I.
 
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/275]http://www.clickertraining.com/node/275[/link]  (Karen Pryor)
 
[linkhttp://www.seattlehumane.org/petcare/ClickerTraining.shtml]http://www.seattlehumane.org/petcare/ClickerTraining.shtml[/link]
 
[linkhttp://www.k9infocus.com/clicker_confusion.htm]http://www.k9infocus.com/clicker_confusion.htm[/link]  (see a few paragraphs down - "I can use my voice more effectively than a clicker".)
 

Clicker trainers don't use constant clicking.

One click and you are done.

Some trainers (in the dog training world) will have a client use something else besides the dog's name due to it having negative association.

So...if you have a dog that doesn't  respond to it's name due to negative aspects, call it pooch (or whatever, just be consistant) c/t using food or praise, then begin work on the recall.

I think Cesar does not use instant gratification as the primary "reward". He looks at the bigger picture of providing a dog with stability, security, fulfillment, and life, as being rewarding.
 
He does not use "training" to shape, manipulate or condition instability. He works with primarily adult, messed-up dogs to get them to the point where they are back in balance through more "social" and "behavioral" concepts. Once the dog is stable, then the "training" portion of working with a dog will be more productive.

Notice the 'when the gang is relaxed'...you are using a positive reinforcement (reward, treats) on a behavior.(calm and relaxed).

It is the same principle.

 
I never argued with that point, I just don't use a clicker, and treats at the time of training[]

From what I can gather CM doesn't use clicker training because it doesn't fit in with his philosophy of achieving a calm-submissive dog through exercise and being a pack leader (boundaries, body language etc) but he is not closed to it.  In fact I have a shrewd suspicion he's not as closed to it as some you seem to suggest, even for the purposes of achieving a calm responsive dog and not just for obedience and trick training.  But thats just my suspicion.

There are now a few threads open in Everything else on clicker training, so maybe we could move further debate on that subject over there and leave this one to meander it's way back on topic....?
 
Edit - Would just like to add that there are some people here who draw a very definite line between "training" and just having a normal, well adjusted, responsive dog.  I don't.  When I interact with my dogs, everything I do is teaching them something whether I consider it a formal training session or not.  If I greet them when I come in I'm reinforcing leaping around and a hyper state of mind (which is why I don't greet them at the door - negative punishment).  When Cesar uses leash pops, Tssssts or neck-pokes he is using negative reinforcement to modify the dog's behaviour and/or mindstate.  If you only dish out treats and attention when the dog is calm, you are positively reinforcing calm behaviour/mindstate.  All aspects of "training".

I think the best example, would have been when he had a session with a Dalmation, at a fire department.
 
He did behavior modification, and then called a clicker trainer once the dog was more balanced.
 
Sidenote: The dog was taken to different places, like schools and so on. The trainer taught the dog to roll over and such things.

ORIGINAL: snownose

I think the best example, would have been when he had a session with a Dalmation, at a fire department.

He did behavior modification, and then called a clicker trainer once the dog was more balanced.

Sidenote: The dog was taken to different places, like schools and so on. The trainer taught the dog to roll over and such things.

 
And there you have it. []
 
Social and behavioral problems require social and behavioral solutions to get the dog back on track and stable. 
 
Training a dog for a specific trick, task, or behavior, requires a training approach.
 
He does not seem to believe in shaping instability (symptoms), or that the introduction of something which increases an already unstable and out of control dog's excitement level, as helpful in achieving a calm dog who is submissive (rather than dominant) to the owner.
 
It's a first things first approach, which I agree with.
 
 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Apparently, you have assumed that I would use this tool on every dog, or that I can't read a dog sufficiently to know when the GL is appropriate and when it isn't, which is not the case.  I merely suggested that a flat collar will not prevent a bite, and that a GL can close the dog's mouth.  Note that I did not, however, say to use a prong on an aggressive dog - that should not happen, for the reason fisher recounted.  Prongs are great for heavy pullers who are stable and pain-insensitive, and not so good for aggression or timidity.  But, as you say, better off in a section of the forum where valid debate is more acceptable.  Bye.

Of course one would assume you use this tool on every dog.  I've read dozens of your posts where you rally behind GL or Easy Walk, while vehemently crying out against prongs, chokes and slips.  Afterall, head collars are what all the "top behaviorists" are using nowadays, right?

Apparently Suzanne Clothier doesn't agree with all of these top trainers and behaviorists and has gone against the herd on this one. I'd love to get a peek at her "mail" after she posted that article. []

Scout in Canada

Again, your opinion only. Ever wonder why *clickers* are not used in bite work with dogs?

Clothier states in her article, as many respected trainers also state, that the best training tool is working with your dog and not relying on equipment. She also states that the head halter does have its place for some circumstances - certain dogs, to prevent bites, etc. I don't know many 'top trainers' that claim the head halters should be a permanent solution, which is another point made in her article. I wouldn't say she's gone against the herd really.

Scout in Canada

Again, your opinion only. Ever wonder why *clickers* are not used in bite work with dogs?

 
I don't know anything about bite work. So why aren't clickers used? And what does bite work have to do with clickers being more or less consistent and precise than voice praise?

Positive reinforcement is absolutely used in bite work, protection and police work. I don't know whether or not they specifically use the box-shaped noisemaker called a "clicker".

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

Positive reinforcement is absolutely used in bite work, protection and police work. I don't know whether or not they specifically use the box-shaped noisemaker called a "clicker".

Ok lets start with this then, No, they don't, and I never mentioned "
Positive reinforcement" So what was your point bring that up???

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

Scout in Canada

Again, your opinion only. Ever wonder why *clickers* are not used in bite work with dogs?

I don't know anything about bite work. So why aren't clickers used? And what does bite work have to do with clickers being more or less consistent and precise than voice praise?

The point is, clicker training is just another way of training, it is no better than any other form of training. and while it works in some areas, there are some it can't work in, period.