The Owner's Equipment

And in what way is this different than clicker training?

quote:

ORIGINAL: snownose

I snap my fingers and use hand movements.........but, what I don't do, is hand out a treat.......I praise, give rubs and pats......treats come later when everybody is relaxed

 
That is a darn good question due to the fact of certain members having accused me of being anti-clicker training, and pro- correction........[8D]

But, they sure do "sound" friendly and nice. Halti, gentle leader...much better than choke, slip, prong, or pinch.

[][] *Gentle* leader!

Well, I brought this up because in clicker threads, I have noticed that you use the term 'handing out treats' quite often.

ORIGINAL: snownose

And in what way is this different than clicker training?

quote:

ORIGINAL: snownose

I snap my fingers and use hand movements.........but, what I don't do, is hand out a treat.......I praise, give rubs and pats......treats come later when everybody is relaxed

That is a darn good question due to the fact of certain members having accused me of being anti-clicker training, and pro- correction........[8D]

Well a lot of people don't call a choke collar a choke collar, they call it a check collar or a training collar. GentleLeader is a brand name and that can't be helped, and I usually refer to those as head halters or head collars because that also includes the Halti and the SnootLoop and any other brands that might be out there.

Well, I brought this up because in clicker threads, I have noticed that you use the term 'handing out treats' quite often.

 
Well, treats get handed out here, also, when the whole gang is relaxed......[]

People don't see clicker training as a dog working for food.

They see it as a reward (maybe a bribe?) for doing commands.

When in truth, clicker dogs have to do so much more than sit/stay/ release, for their dinner.

Mine may have to work up to a 1/2 hour for his instead of the NILIF's two or so minutes.

It is all about perception.

I think that some people see clicker training as ... rewarding *before* a desired behavior is accomplished. This goes against C.Millan's philosophy which is to award the dog with food, rubs, only *after* it cooperates (i.e. in a "calm submissive" state, a he calls it).

I have only seen him use treats to get a dog to 'move forward' - holding it in front of the dog's nose and walking ahead, giving treats to one dog who had a fear of males (he wanted get the dog to move forward, as he explained it).

Notice the 'when the gang is relaxed'...you are using a positive reinforcement (reward, treats) on a behavior.(calm and relaxed).

It is the same principle.

ORIGINAL: snownose

Well, I brought this up because in clicker threads, I have noticed that you use the term 'handing out treats' quite often.

Well, treats get handed out here, also, when the whole gang is relaxed......[]

Sorry for the multiple posts.  Evidently you were typing as I was replying to the other post.

Clicker trainers do not give a reward before a behavior is accomplished.

Your second point,  may be referred to as luring, or bribery to some. (I think) One with more knowledge may need to step in here.  I am a beginner.

ORIGINAL: TinaK


I think that some people see clicker training as ... rewarding *before* a desired behavior is accomplished. This goes against C.Millan's philosophy which is to award the dog with food, rubs, only *after* it cooperates (i.e. in a "calm submissive" state, a he calls it).

I have only seen him use treats to get a dog to 'move forward' - holding it in front of the dog's nose and walking ahead, giving treats to one dog who had a fear of males (he wanted get the dog to move forward, as he explained it).

I think that some people see clicker training as ... rewarding *before* a desired behavior is accomplished. This goes against C.Millan's philosophy which is to award the dog with food, rubs, only *after* it cooperates (i.e. in a "calm submissive" state, a he calls it).

Well, that would most certainly be a misunderstanding! I can see having this problem with any obedience work that uses lures, which can quickly turn into bribes if you don't fade the lure very quickly. But it's not just clicker training that uses lures, and in fact a lot of clicker trainers don't use lures much at all, since so much can be accomplished through shaping. I prefer shaping for this very reason, though sometimes its not practical. In the cases that I do use lures they get taken out of the picture very quickly, usually after only about three trials with the lure, once I've established for the dog the action I want him to perform.

Sorry for the multiple posts. Evidently you were typing as I was replying to the other post.

Clicker trainers do not give a reward before a behavior is accomplished.

Your second point, may be referred to as luring, or bribery to some. (I think) One with more knowledge may need to step in here. I am a beginner.

Ok. I see what you're saying. Let me think about what I was trying to say... I am getting there.

It's just he rewards a dog when it's in a different state of mind.. Rather than just for doing the action right. Not sure how to describe this...

Perhaps trainers should just do their jobs better at being consistant, as well as working on the sound. As far as being more precise in timing goes, it's laughable to think that a 1/4 of a second makes one bit of differene. And as far as I know, I must have the fastest Good! around because my timing is awesome. LOL

Well, I have to disagree with this comment. As someone who has trained my own dogs (past and present) both ways, I find the consistent, perfect timing that the clicker allows to be much more effective. Can I train using "yes!" or "good!" - of course. Does the understanding of the command come as quickly - no.
 
Then you factor in the fact that we as humans are constantly talking, babbling, etc and words like 'yes' and 'good' can easily lose their meaning over time. To illustrate a different way - if you are constantly saying your dog's name in conversation it loses effectiveness in getting their attention. Same for words like 'yes' and 'good' - you drop words like that here and there in non-dog related talk, and they don't have that "I did it!" factor for the dog. The clicker is only used for training and as such is recognized by the dog as a definite sign that they've done the right thing.
 
I don't care if we're talking a 1/4 second or whatever time interval, the fact is that the clicker is more consistent and allows for better timing, which only enhances communication with the dog.

C.Millan often sees tension in a dog's body even after it performs a desired task, so he doesn't reward - he tries again and again. Then he'd say : "Now the dog is calm submissive, now you can give it as much affection and treats as you want".

Often, what people interpret as 'obedience', he sees tension and resistance in the behavior.

Edited sp.

I think I see where you are going with this.  CM rewards dogs for obediant behavior.  I think his reward may be more in the form of withdrawing a correction.  So while some apply a positive stimulus (adding treats praise), some apply a negative  (removing something)

Oh man, someone definitely needs to step in.  I feel that I am bumbling this up

As far as tension and resistance, that can easily be perceived as focus on the dog's part.

Ok. I see what you're saying. Let me think about what I was trying to say... I am getting there.

It's just he rewards a dog when it's in a different state of mind.. Rather than just for doing the action right. Not sure how to describe this...

If something gives you the ability to be more precise, why not take that opportunity?

An example: Marlowe only really pays attention to his name in a way that he knows means I'm asking him for something if I say it a certain way. I say his name about a jillion times a day. "Where's Marlowe? Has Marlowe had his walk? Has Marlowe been out recently? Oh, Marlowe just did this funny thing!" But only when I want his attention do I sing out his name as "Maaar-looooowe!" with two notes in there. DH can't get his attention nearly as easily because he doesn't sing his name like I do, he just says it in the same way he also says Marlowe's name a million times a day. It's just that sometimes, Marlowe's attention is not required and sometimes it is. How is Marlowe supposed to know the difference?

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada


Well, I have to disagree with this comment. As someone who has trained my own dogs (past and present) both ways, I find the consistent, perfect timing that the clicker allows to be much more effective. Can I train using "yes!" or "good!" - of course. Does the understanding of the command come as quickly - no.

But that's you, that's your dogs, not the rest of the dog training world. And while you disagree, your simply staing your opinion, not a fact.

Then you factor in the fact that we as humans are constantly talking, babbling, etc and words like 'yes' and 'good' can easily lose their meaning over time.

Is it infact the "yes or good" that loose their meaning, or just bad training? And how much babbling exactly does it take for words to lose their meaning. Also how much constant clicking does it take for that to lose it value?

To illustrate a different way - if you are constantly saying your dog's name in conversation it loses effectiveness in getting their attention. Same for words like 'yes' and 'good' - you drop words like that here and there in non-dog related talk, and they don't have that "I did it!" factor for the dog.

That is about as far from the truth IMO as one can get. I say my dogs name just talking about her, your right, she pays little attention, but still pays attention, now that could be *because I don't go around saying her name 24/7*, however! when I call her name she knows I'm talking to her and want her attention. One is only your opinion from what you've learned, the other is just mine from what I've learned.

The clicker is only used for training and as such is recognized by the dog as a definite sign that they've done the right thing.

So is my yes and good.

I don't care if we're talking a 1/4 second or whatever time interval, the fact is that the clicker is more consistent and allows for better timing, which only enhances communication with the dog.

Again, your opinion only. Ever wonder why *clickers* are not used in bite work with dogs?

Well that's all I've time for, have fun all.