pit bull, dog aggression, and obsession with ball???

espencer

How dare you come here and make sense. You shall be punished. Bahahahaha

You know what? Screw you guys. Is this how it is on the CM side of the board?
I never said that DA was a pit bull exclusive thing.

I'm done with this thread. If I EVER have a question about a CM show or his techniques, I'll sure as HELL not be coming to THIS side of the tracks to ask it.

I came here with a question. A REAL question. Thank you to those who helped answer it for me.
Awsomedog, however, you contributed nothing but negativity to my thread. You insulted other posters (and myself) in this thread by speaking to them in a condescending way and then claiming to be the victim of fight picking. The only initial negativity in this entire thread, came from you, awsomedog.
I hope that you have more tolerance for the pit bulls you work with, awsomedog, than you do for the people who simply want to be educated about them.

This is magical, irresponsible thinking that makes awful legislation like BSL more and not less likely, and for what?

The potential for dog aggression is easily managed. You just have to be able to admit that it's a real possibility.

(and while I haven't spoken to Jamie about this recently and won't put words in her mouth, in general she's been a real supporter of AmStaffs while contending that the breed is not for everybody, and that there are issues with dog aggression that need to be managed).

Not because their a ticking time bomb. That clear things up?

 
Please, point out to me where I used the words 'ticking time bomb'. Your words, not mine.

ORIGINAL: chewbecca


You know what? Screw you guys. Is this how it is on the CM side of the board?
I never said that DA was a pit bull exclusive thing.

S**** us guys? So far that makes you the rudest person here. I never said you said it was a pit bull only "thing", I said I didn't and don't believe Pits are born naturally DA. And I have every right to believe that, just as you have every right to *believe* what you believe. As far as  "Is this how it is on the CM side of the board? " Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I'm done with this thread. If I EVER have a question about a CM show or his techniques, I'll sure as HELL not be coming to THIS side of the tracks to ask it.

Well, that's a real same. I'll miss all the nice profanities in your post.

Awsomedog, however, you contributed nothing but negativity to my thread. You insulted other posters (and myself) in this thread by speaking to them in a condescending way and then claiming to be the victim of fight picking. The only initial negativity in this entire thread, came from you, awsomedog.

That's your side of the story. I stated my opinion, that's what this forum is for, you just don't like the answers.

I hope that you have more tolerance for the pit bulls you work with, awsomedog, than you do for the people who simply want to be educated about them.

Dogs are wonderful and I am far more tolerant of any aggressive dog than most. Dogs are honest about who they are, which is why they're (regardless of what issues they may have) such a joy to work with and help. Sometimes people say one thing when they mean another. Some people who "want to be educated" only want to hear what they want to hear. Well then.

ORIGINAL: fisher6000


(and while I haven't spoken to Jamie about this recently and won't put words in her mouth, in general she's been a real supporter of AmStaffs while contending that the breed is not for everybody, and that there are issues with dog aggression that need to be managed).

I'm not sure how much more clear I can make this but, I have NEVER said pits can't be aggressive (which any dog can). I said, I don't believe their born "naturally DA". When a pit gets into a fight does any know what actually caused the fight? What led to the aggressive behavior. Was it because he/she is simply a "pit" or was it that the dog wasn't having his/her needs met? Show me proof pits are born naturally DA. And all powerful dogs should be managed correctly, which includes meeting their needs.

BSL's don't happen because some of us are trying show this breed is no different than any other large powerful breed. BSL's happen because people run around yellings their born DA.

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

Not because their a ticking time bomb. That clear things up?

Please, point out to me where I used the words 'ticking time bomb'. Your words, not mine.

When people are stating that at a certain age, *theses dogs could go off at any moment and therefore can't be trusted*, that sounds like a ticking time bomb to me.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

Not because their a ticking time bomb. That clear things up?

Please, point out to me where I used the words 'ticking time bomb'. Your words, not mine.

When people are stating that at a certain age, *theses dogs could go off at any moment and therefore can't be trusted*, that sounds like a ticking time bomb to me.

 
Who's quote was that taken from on this thread?

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada


Who's quote was that taken from on this thread?

Go back, start at page one, and start reading. And it's not a quote, it's the sum of what was being claimed. Have you actually been reading this thread or just what i'm saying so you can argue about it?

Yes I've been reading this thread, and the reason I asked for the quote is because you've been putting words in people's mouthes the whole time. It's not fair to read someone's post that says "certain breeds have genetic tendencies" and from there accuse them of being pro-BSL or claim they said "ticking time bomb". From one thread to the next you just seem to get a kick out of making fun of people, accusing them of pro-BSL nonsense, and throwing around your apparent training background to put other people's ideas down. There are always arguments about CM, but lately this section has been especially miserable with very few exceptions (some threads have survived with intelligent conversation and thought). I don't know how you figure posting "BAHAHAHAHA" at someone else's post to be of any value in a conversation. Anyway I think I need to stick with the other sections so I can actually start enjoying this forum again.

Sheesh, cool it!

1.  Are you guys arguing over whether genetics have any impact on behaviour?
2.  Or are you arguing over whether there is any natural DA in pit bulls' genetics?

WRT #1  weeeell, I assume we agree that answer is yes, they do - your genetics can give you a greater potential for this or that trait.  If this is the main bone of contention then you may as well give up the debate now, nature v nurture has been going on for years amongst scientists and people more learned than ourselves and is still not resolved.

WRT #2  Can we all agree that at some point in the breed's history traits that made it a good fighter were exaggerated?  Hence the high pain threshold etc?  This no longer happens in good breeding circles - we def agree on that. 

But this leads me to a a 3rd question; can we agree that unfortunately this unscrupulous breeding is still recent enough to have an impact on the breed we see today?  Bearing in mind unneeded/unwanted things are hard to get rid of through evolution/selective breeding and it takes a loooooong time.  (Hence why I still got an appendix.)  A breeder with better knowledge of genetics than me would have to step in here.

Ding ding.....[]

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

Yes I've been reading this thread, and the reason I asked for the quote is because you've been putting words in people's mouthes the whole time. It's not fair to read someone's post that says "certain breeds have genetic tendencies" and from there accuse them of being pro-BSL or claim they said "ticking time bomb". From one thread to the next you just seem to get a kick out of making fun of people, accusing them of pro-BSL nonsense, and throwing around your apparent training background to put other people's ideas down. There are always arguments about CM, but lately this section has been especially miserable with very few exceptions (some threads have survived with intelligent conversation and thought). I don't know how you figure posting "BAHAHAHAHA" at someone else's post to be of any value in a conversation. Anyway I think I need to stick with the other sections so I can actually start enjoying this forum again.

And yet we can see your post are just full of value.

But, here ya go.
"Why? Because the breed can have a tendency towards DA"
"Many pits decide they don't like dogs,
This is just a matter of who they are. Pits are terriers--dogs that are bred to kill small animals"
"If you own a pitbull, you need to be aware of their potential DA"
"About half the pits I personally know don't like at least some other dogs. About a third of them have seriously hurt another dog. This doesn't make them bad dogs--they are doing what they were originally bred to do."
"They have a tendency to develop interdog aggression."
"And it's very name tells you what that further breeding was to achieve"
"one being the Pit and I do believe they were specifically for fighting - hence the inherent DA"
"For DOG AGGRESSION. 2-5 years is the normal age range that a pit bull's inherent dog aggressive trait can develop."

Do I really need to go on? What do those statement lead you to believe about the breed?

Hows this for a bottom line. We'll just have to agree to disagree. you believe what you believe and I'll stick with what I belive. Everyone wins. Got a problem with that Scout???

BSL's don't happen because some of us are trying show this breed is no different than any other large powerful breed. BSL's happen because people run around yellings their born DA.

I must respectfully disagree with this statement.

This topic gets tossed around in Brooklyn's dog runs quite a bit. One reason BSL gets support in any community is because people get pits without doing any research (or without their knowledge--urban rescue organizations have taken to calling pits and pit mixes "terrier mixes" or "lab mixes") and then take them to dog runs, where sometimes they attack other dogs, and sometimes these attacks are really upsetting.

Go to any dog run in this city regularly enough and you will see a "new pit owner" pattern emerge in which newly adopted pits tend to be the ones starting the scariest fights. The reasons for this are twofold:

1. Small urban dog runs can get really intense and create issues for any drivey dog.
2. Pits, because of their breeding, are often prone to being drivey, and are often more disposed to fighting with other dogs.

So a new pit owner goes to the dog run until their dog attacks another dog. And then they get educated... a little too late.

This pattern creates quite a bit of support for BSL from within the dog community here, and that's a shame, and it is entirely preventable. If, instead of lying about what these dogs even *are*, rescue groups in this city educated their prospective adopters about the real traits of their fantastic new friend, then everyone would win:

1. Adopters would walk into dog ownership with a clear sense of what they are getting, and would therefore have the tools to be responsible dog owners.

2. Pits would be put into homes where the potential for dog aggression would be a normal, managable event and not cause for putting the dog down.

3. The rest of the dogs in the dog run would be spared the learning curve, as pit owners would socialize their dogs in less intense environments like open fields or private play dates.

Who loses if we all admit that all dogs have inborn traits that are important to watch out for, and that many breeds of dogs come with an increased potential for aggression? Sighthound owners do not do anyone any favors if they blindly assert that their dog loves cats. Most terrier owners should not leave their dog alone with their friend's ferret. People who own a herding breed should not freak out when their dog starts herding and nipping at their children.

Knowledge is power.

It seems to me that you think that DA is not genetic in pit bulls. You seem to keep saying that people here are saying that pit bulls are ticking time bombs. No one has said that. You seem to think that as long as the environment (or treatment-anything outside of genetics) is right for a pit bull, it will never be DA. My answer is: the dog can still have DA issues, but if managed properly, it won't be a problem. But an owner shouldn't just assume that their pit bull is going to get along with all dogs.

 
I don't know if Chewbecca is still reading... but if so, unfortunately you came to the CM forum just after the whole dog discussion I think... since Awsomedog didn't mind me speaking for him last time I hope he won't mind again - he believes that all dog errors are really handler errors and all dog 'problems' can be traced back to some failing on the part of the human. See the "Whole Dog" thread. So I don't he believes dog aggression is genetically based, no... therefore it can't be genetically based in pit bulls or any other breed. If the environment and handler are right, no dog will have DA (not my belief, but the Whole Dog belief).

Awsomedog, I notice that you didn't comment on any of the quotes by Diane Jessup.  Interesting.  Perhaps you just didn't want to respond to a real expert on the breed?  I might be more convinced of your position that genetics plays no role in dog behavior if you, I don't know, had some proof.  Meanwhile, I think that you should go start this disscussion on pitbullforum.com.  Go on, I dare you.

I think it is extremely unfortunate that this thread has gone downhill the way it has.  Seriously, this could have been a good disscussion.