pit bull, dog aggression, and obsession with ball???

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
I think this personal attack against those members is rude an unwarranted, and part of why we don't seem to be able to get along on these threads.  I think Xerxes is trying, on some of these areas, to get us to take the high road - so let's see if we can go along with his suggestion.

 
Again, that close rank mentality.  Don't you think others are also trying to achieve the same thing, myself, Awsomedog, Chuffy, fisher6000, jm, Jones, and Snownose?  Why not specifically mention them.  Well, not me lately, I have given up.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: jones

I don't know if this is something Millan himself would actually say but it has been heavily implied, if not outrightly stated, many times in this forum that there are really only 3 reasons why a dog does anything wrong, ever (including aggression, property destruction, etc): 1. Lack of exercise or breed-specific jobs, 2. Lack of leadership by the handler, 3. Negative emotional or "energy" influence of the handler (eg, coddling, anxiety, etc). I think this is where Awsomedog is coming from wrt to the dog aggression issue. Millan's show portrays all dog problems as handler problems, so there is no genetic imprint for dog aggression - except in extremely rare cases of mentally ill dogs I would suppose. As I've said before in another thread, his notion is of whole Dog, a perfect being who is only corrupted at the hands of humans. I likened him to St. Augustine, & maybe it's a bit Platonic too. It's very much untethered to the sort of guts & bones everyday business of dog breeding and individual temperament and so on.

Now here is some one who at least seem to understand some of what I was saying. As far as Chuffy and fisher and a couple of others who IMO know little to nothing about the breed, this is as far as I go on this thread, because you simply have no clue, and turned this thread into exactly what I knew you would, your own propaganda.

This is insulting and is not constructive. I can appreciate you know more about this breed than I do and I would welcome being politely corrected if I have misled anyone or stated anything untrue about the breed. I mean that quite sincerely - TELL ME if I've said anything that is not true, so that I don't repeat it to someone else and give them misinformation. But please try to be polite about it.

As far as your remark about propaganda goes..... Pit bulls are rare here and BSL is already in place effectively banning them so I don't know why you think I have an agenda on that score.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall you saying anything misleading about the breed except that they were originally bred for fighting. And I'm not even quite sure that you stated that, but instead ASKED that. And either way, it's a very common mistake to make about pit bulls. It's not anything that anyone should make a big deal out of because if someone says it, you just politely inform them otherwise. AND, also, the most recent breeding (or that plays a direct genetic role, at any rate) would be the breeding for fighting anyway, and in that case, it's something you recognize with the breed, handle it cautiously and learn to enjoy your wonderfully human friendly dog.

OT-We started preparing Ella for muzzle work with my trainer. In other words, we're getting her more acquainted with it so that we can possibly do off leash socialization with the trainers dog some day. It was for only like a minute or two (maybe 3), but Ella was fine with the muzzle AS LONG AS she had a job to do while wearing it. And by job, I mean following a command. If she was so much as only in a sit stay, she was fine with the muzzle. If she was moving, she was fine with having the muzzle on. But the second we didn't have her following a command or moving, she was pawing at it. But a HUGE part of why she is OK with the muzzle, I believe, is because whenever I had the muzzle out, I acted like the happiest idiot on the planet around Ella. I had her sniff it and I praised her. Whenever she got near the muzzle, I praised and treated like mad. I got to the point where I could put treats inside the muzzle and she'd stick her face in to get the treats. And she was fine. Now whenever I pull the muzzle out she's wagging her tail and sniffing it and she's all happy and excited.
Just thought I'd mention it.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall you saying anything misleading about the breed except that they were originally bred for fighting. And I'm not even quite sure that you stated that, but instead ASKED that. And either way, it's a very common mistake to make about pit bulls. It's not anything that anyone should make a big deal out of because if someone says it, you just politely inform them otherwise

 
No, you're right I did say that - I think!.  Perhaps we have a different wossname of the word "originally". The original crosses between bulldogs and terriers weren't specifically for fighting I think although they were used for that.  But this branched out to more specific breeds, one being the Pit and I do believe they were specifically for fighting - hence the inherent DA in many specimens, the high pain threshold, natural painkillers and the very name. 
 
I'm not being argumentative here but.... am I wrong?

To tell you the honest to God truth, Chuffy, I cannot even give you a 100% truthful answer. And I know that sounds horrible.
It all depends on who is giving the pit bull history lesson.
Some link the pit bull more to the original bull baiting bull dog, and even the original bull baiting bull dog was said to be originally bred for boar hunting (or so I've gathered from various sources) and don't pay much mind to the "terrier" part in the pit bull because the terrier part was used in several different breeds of bull dog breeds (or...sub breeds) so the terrier part is kind of..."thin" in the bloodline of the pit bull (or the making, whatever).
I've read some things that state that, yeah, while that's all true, the pit bull was then branched off into it's own breed and that when it was branched off into it's own breed, by then bull baiting was no longer used, so the dog was then used to fight in pits.

I'd actually like to know the exact history of the dog, myself. I keep reading conflicting thoughts on the matter and am unsure which source is correct.
Diane Jessup has one history lesson and PBRC.net has another.

Which is right? Probably depends on the source and the source's purpose. A rescue or shelter is going to hype up the human friendliness of the pit bull and tell about how wonderful their temperaments are (and they are fabulous dogs, no doubt, I love mine) and they're going to make sure to express the dog aggression possibilities in any dog they adopt out (at least they will if they're a reputable rescue) because they want these dogs to stay in forever homes and not be returned so they KNOW they have to be honest with their adopters. So, these people are going to see dog aggression as more a workable thing and a changeable thing. Breeders are trying to make a dog for a specific purpose (and god only knows how many different kinds of purposes there) and they'll be more concerned with the genetic/temperament issues, at least a reputable one will. They'll dig deeper into the history of the creation of the APBT. They'll go way back. This is just my take on it, it's not a fact. It's just the only reason I can come up with for why there's different breed histories available out there. Simply, I think there are different focuses on the breed.

ETA: But one thing they ALL agree on is: Dog aggression is something that pit bulls are known for. Some focus more on the genetic aspect of it and some say, "ok, these dogs are prone to DA, but that's changeable."

Does that make sense?

Totally and completely.  I think we are in agreement on the history of the breed.  When I say they were "originally bred for fighting", by "originally" I meant the point at which they "branched off" if that makes sense.  I know what you mean about history and advice and how it's all conflicting.... makes me wonder if anyone can truly be an "expert" on this one because its a toughie untangling the propaganda.  Education is so important to avoid media hysteria and BSL, but it's so tricky to achieve with the current "climate".  How frustrating for lovers of the breed!

ORIGINAL: Chuffy  But this branched out to more specific breeds, one being the Pit and I do believe they were specifically for fighting - hence the inherent DA in many specimens, the high pain threshold, natural painkillers and the very name. 

I'm not being argumentative here but.... am I wrong?

Well it certainly wouldn't hurt if you actually picked up a book and did some real reseach. It beats just guessing.

APBT or pit bull
History: In the nineteenth century the English began crossing bulldogs and terriers. Immigrants brought the result of these crosses to the U.S. The APBT (pit) was developed in the U.S. as a gaurd, cattle catcher, livestock driver, and companion. (<  see that.) It's most notorious use (not originally bred for!!!) was fighting.[color="#000000"]The breed is a fighter because of it's natural power (not because their born aggressive). [/color]

ORIGINAL: Chuffy Education is so important to avoid media hysteria and BSL, but it's so tricky to achieve with the current "climate".  How frustrating for lovers of the breed!

Yep! Education would be good, but's it's a little tricky when those who don't truly understand the breed go around *claiming* they can *snap!* and become killers any moment. Which helps lead to BSL's.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: Chuffy Education is so important to avoid media hysteria and BSL, but it's so tricky to achieve with the current "climate". How frustrating for lovers of the breed!

Yep! Education would be good, but's it's a little tricky when those who don't truly understand the breed go around *claiming* they can *snap!* and become killers any moment. Which helps lead to BSL's.

Yep and it's a good thing no one here is doing that!

By suggesting I'm guessing and haven't done any research you are insulting me.  Please don't bother to reply to my posts unless you can be polite about it. 
 
As chewbacca said, a lot of the information available is conflicting and what is being said depends on who is saying it.  Much of it is propaganda. 
 
The word "originally" is tripping us up a bit here.  Whether the breed was originally bred to fight is less relevant than the fact that it has been selectively bred for this purpose.  Moreover, this has been done relatively recently and this is relevant.
 
"The breed is a fighter" because it has been bred to be darned good at it, not (I agree with you here) because they are "born aggressive".  No one has said they are born aggressive and no one has said they will "snap" at any moment.

Claims have been made that the dog can go off at anytime between the ages of 2 and 5 yrs old. What do you call that?

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

Claims have been made that the dog can go off at anytime between the ages of 2 and 5 yrs old. What do you call that?

For DOG AGGRESSION. 2-5 years is the normal age range that a pit bull's inherent dog aggressive trait can develop.
It may not happen with all pit bulls, but apparently has happened with enough for rescues and pit bull educators to make adopters/owners aware of it.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

By suggesting I'm guessing and haven't done any research you are insulting me.  Please don't bother to reply to my posts unless you can be polite about it. 

As chewbacca said, a lot of the information available is conflicting and what is being said depends on who is saying it.  Much of it is propaganda. 

The word "originally" is tripping us up a bit here.  Whether the breed was originally bred to fight is less relevant than the fact that it has been selectively bred for this purpose.  Moreover, this has been done relatively recently and this is relevant.

"The breed is a fighter" because it has been bred to be darned good at it, not (I agree with you here) because they are "born aggressive".  No one has said they are born aggressive and no one has said they will "snap" at any moment.

I have never seen any source writen by someone who actually knows the breed that conflicts with the historical info the Awsomedog posted and I have done a great deal of research on it as breed history intrests me.

The good breeders are not breeding bully breeds to fight anymore.  There are a variety of things they ARE breeding them for, but fighting (in today's world with GOOD breeders) is not one of them.  Therefore the blanket statement that they are bred for fighting is inaccurate.   

But this is from pbrc.net

The Breed's Original Purpose
Humans have created specialized dogs through emphasizing desired traits and eliminating unwanted ones. It is no different with the pit bull type dogs. The American Pit Bull Terrier has been "selectively" bred for hundreds of years to fight other dogs. This is the sad "work" these dogs were created for. In the same way that Labradors were bred to retrieve birds, APBTs were bred to face other dogs in mortal combat. Even in dogs that are not recently bred from fighting lines, the urge to fight can arise at any time. Not to strongly emphasize this fact would be negligent.

That said, we can't blame specialized breeds for behaving as they were bred to. Specific traits were bred into the dogs and are now part of the breed's character. It's like the digging instinct of many Terriers, the herding behavior in Shelties, the compulsion to run in Greyhounds, etc. Your Pointer may have never spent a day on a real hunt, but he may still point and flush birds as his ancestors did.

It's a mistake to think that the fighting gene can be trained or loved out of a dog, or that early socialization will guarantee your pit bull will always get along with other animals. There are precautions to take when owning pit bulls, especially in a multiple-dog environment. Unfortunately these precautions are often viewed as acceptance for the sport of pit-fighting when nothing could be further from the truth. Knowing how to avoid a fight, as well as how to break it up if, despite all efforts one strikes, is proof of smart and responsible pit bull ownership

And I know that I've read plenty of other sites that do not dwell on the fighting history/aspect of the APBT.

And I agree, Christina, good breeders no longer breed these dogs for fighting purposes.

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

But this is from pbrc.net


The Breed's Original Purpose
Humans have created specialized dogs through emphasizing desired traits and eliminating unwanted ones. It is no different with the pit bull type dogs. The American Pit Bull Terrier has been "selectively" bred for hundreds of years to fight other dogs. This is the sad "work" these dogs were created for. In the same way that Labradors were bred to retrieve birds, APBTs were bred to face other dogs in mortal combat. Even in dogs that are not recently bred from fighting lines, the urge to fight can arise at any time. Not to strongly emphasize this fact would be negligent.

That said, we can't blame specialized breeds for behaving as they were bred to. Specific traits were bred into the dogs and are now part of the breed's character. It's like the digging instinct of many Terriers, the herding behavior in Shelties, the compulsion to run in Greyhounds, etc. Your Pointer may have never spent a day on a real hunt, but he may still point and flush birds as his ancestors did.

It's a mistake to think that the fighting gene can be trained or loved out of a dog, or that early socialization will guarantee your pit bull will always get along with other animals. There are precautions to take when owning pit bulls, especially in a multiple-dog environment. Unfortunately these precautions are often viewed as acceptance for the sport of pit-fighting when nothing could be further from the truth. Knowing how to avoid a fight, as well as how to break it up if, despite all efforts one strikes, is proof of smart and responsible pit bull ownership

What makes that info (which is highly suspect) correct, and this info (which is found when someone really researches the breed) incorrect? "
"APBT or pit bull
History: In the nineteenth century the English began crossing bulldogs and terriers. Immigrants brought the result of these crosses to the U.S. The APBT (pit) was developed in the U.S. as a gaurd, cattle catcher, livestock driver, and companion. (<  see that.) It's most notorious use (not originally bred for!!!) was fighting.[color="#000000"]The breed is a fighter because of it's natural power (not because their born aggressive). " [/color]

And I know that I've read plenty of other sites that do not dwell on the fighting history/aspect of the APBT.

Because there's no reason to "dwell" on it.

Dammit!
I NEVER said ANY info posted in this thread was incorrect! I simply posted that because it's part of the information that tells about the fight history.

NO ONE DWELLS ON THE FIGHT HISTORY OF THE BREED.

If it appears that way then it's because of the genetic predispositon pit bulls have for DA.
And another reason it could appear that way is because you keep denying it does exist and I keep having to remind you, that while we shouldn't dwell on it, we should be aware that it exists and to take proper precautions.
That's it and that's all.

I am not saying that pbrc.net's information is anymore or any less accurate than any of the other information out there about the breed. I posted it to show the confliction in information available.