pit bull, dog aggression, and obsession with ball???

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

ORIGINAL: sillysally

ORIGINAL: Chuffy
Considering what Pits were originally bred for, what breed specific job do you give them when rehabbing?  Or would it just be generally more stimulation.  Has CM ever addressed this in his show? 

Pits were not just bred for fighting.  They are very athletic dogs that were also bred for general farm work.  A huge number of them enjoy weight pulling, agility, tracking, even herding.  Many (not mine though) enjoy fetch with a ball or frisbee.

Hmmmm, I was under the understanding that they were bred for fighting, but also found to be good at general farm work.

An interesting perspective, going back to what was said earlier about it being responsible to face up to the history of the breed and how it impacts on it today in terms of how it should be handled, trained, socialised, managed.....  I was looking at a few websites of Pit breeders and they really big up the other things the dog was found to be good at and ignore or skim over what the dog was originally bred for..... It seems this attitude is rife, undoubtedly because Pits get a bad enough rap as it is and they don't wish to add fuel to the fire.  Even the breed standard glosses over the uglier side of the breeds history.  IMO though, this approach is counter productive.  Sorry if that's OT.

Well, the origanal stock was bred to work with butchers stopping cattle.  Eventually people got the idea  from this work to develope the bloodsport of bull baiting, and when that was outlawed the dog fighting became popular.

As far as the mention of fighting by pit bull breeders--I don't know that there is a need for repeated mantion of the breeds fighting history.  There is nothing wrong with acknowledging it, but one must also move past it.  The world of the bully breeds is so much more than just fighting.  I think it's a GOOD thing that websites show other things the dogs do well, because that is what the modern pit bull should be.  Personally, I am just as wary of a website or book that discusses the fighting aspect of the breed too much as I am of those that don't mention it at all.

I mention it, or have a lot here in this thread, because to not mention the history of fight in the breed is glossing it. Or at least I assumed that's what Chuffy was meaning when she said it isn't mentioned at all. But I try not to dwell on it.
Also I mentioned it here because I think that awsomedog was denying the genetic connection in pit bulls for DA.

But, you're right. Pit bulls ARE so much more than just the part of their fight history. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to train Ella to be a therapy dog.

My understanding is that the original dogs that were crosses between bull breeds and terriers were used for a wide variety of things, blood sports included; the gameness of the terrier combined with the strength of of the bull breeds made them tough and versatile.  These original dogs branched out into more specific breeds.... the pit bull being one of them.  And it's very name tells you what that further breeding was to achieve.  It's such a huge part of the dogs history and drove the selective breeding that created the breed we see today.... and what's more that history and selective breeding is still relatively recent compared to other breeds which I think is highly relavant.  I agree with you 100% that breeders are right not to dwell on it, but to almost ignore it completely means that newcomers to the  breed or those who believe it to be dangerous are not educated.  Such ignorance is what creates problems and leads to BSL..... but that's just my opinion.

My honest opinion??

If you're a breeder or a rescue worker getting ready to adopt out a pit bull or a pit bull mix, it is VERY important to make sure the buyer or adopter is well educated on the possibility for their dog to turn DA. In order to explain the reasoning, the fight history part of the breed needs to be explained.

As an owner, no, it shouldn't be dwelled on, but you should always be aware that it's there and take precautions.
Like, I don't dwell on it to the point where it changes my relationship with my dog, but it does hinder my ability to take my dog certain places. I cannot take her to Petco or even a groomer. If I took her to these places, she'd have to be muzzled. I cannot take her to most of my relatives' houses because they own dogs. She doesn't get along with my mom's dog as we already tried an introduction and everything went fine until my mom's dog decided to stop the sniffing routine and growl and bark at Ella. That's when Ella was like, "You wanna box??? We can SO box." So, that intro ended. My brother has a high energy, nervous GSD that is a female, so THAT is a no go for now.

Breeders and rescuers need to educate about DA and unfortunately, that requires mentioning the fight history. Owners need to be aware and watchful.

ORIGINAL: jones

I don't know if this is something Millan himself would actually say but it has been heavily implied, if not outrightly stated, many times in this forum that there are really only 3 reasons why a dog does anything wrong, ever (including aggression, property destruction, etc): 1. Lack of exercise or breed-specific jobs, 2. Lack of leadership by the handler, 3. Negative emotional or "energy" influence of the handler (eg, coddling, anxiety, etc). I think this is where Awsomedog is coming from wrt to the dog aggression issue. Millan's show portrays all dog problems as handler problems, so there is no genetic imprint for dog aggression - except in extremely rare cases of mentally ill dogs I would suppose. As I've said before in another thread, his notion is of whole Dog, a perfect being who is only corrupted at the hands of humans. I likened him to St. Augustine, & maybe it's a bit Platonic too. It's very much untethered to the sort of guts & bones everyday business of dog breeding and individual temperament and so on.

Now here is some one who at least seem to understand some of what I was saying. As far as Chuffy and fisher and a couple of others who IMO know little to nothing about the breed, this is as far as I go on this thread, because you simply have no clue, and turned this thread into exactly what I knew you would, your own propaganda.

Awsomedog,

I started this thread with a freakin' question about a CM episode that TWO people in my life compared to my dog. I will be doing muzzle work with my trainer to socialize her. You came into this thread and insulted ME.

WHY?

Why the hell would you come into a thread I started and insult me?? Fine. So we don't agree on what causes BSL or that pit bulls have a tendancy to be DA. But where did the thread go wrong? I NEVER said that once a pit bull displays DA behaviors that it's NOT workable. In fact, I posted a link from badrap.org that states the exact opposite.
I don't know where you get off even IMPLYING that I have no experience with pit bulls and shouldn't own one.
I have NO idea what your propoganda statement means and why the heck you THINK that you are the know all, end all of ANY and ALL knowledge about pit bulls.

I don't even know what the heck is bothering you in my thread other than you're simply here to argue and prove how "right" you are. Are you just outright denying that DA can be a genetic thing in pit bulls???
Because, man, it is a KNOWN fact that it IS.

ETA: And even though it IS a genetic thing, working on it depends on how the handler recognizes it and deals with it.

chewbecca

When a apology is needed one should be given, you right it wasn't you, I'm sorry and the post was corrected.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

chewbecca

When a apology is needed one should be given, you right it wasn't you, I'm sorry and the post was corrected.

Apology gladly accepted. I have no issues with CM (that I'm aware of) because I am not able to watch the show. So, I guess you can say that I lack knowledge of his techniques, for the most part.

I think we ("we" meaning the people on this forum in general) should often agree to disagree and battling to the point of insult, is unnecessary.

I love my dog SO much and wish to do right by her. This is why she is not just getting training, but we, as owners, are getting training as well.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: jones

I don't know if this is something Millan himself would actually say but it has been heavily implied, if not outrightly stated, many times in this forum that there are really only 3 reasons why a dog does anything wrong, ever (including aggression, property destruction, etc): 1. Lack of exercise or breed-specific jobs, 2. Lack of leadership by the handler, 3. Negative emotional or "energy" influence of the handler (eg, coddling, anxiety, etc). I think this is where Awsomedog is coming from wrt to the dog aggression issue. Millan's show portrays all dog problems as handler problems, so there is no genetic imprint for dog aggression - except in extremely rare cases of mentally ill dogs I would suppose. As I've said before in another thread, his notion is of whole Dog, a perfect being who is only corrupted at the hands of humans. I likened him to St. Augustine, & maybe it's a bit Platonic too. It's very much untethered to the sort of guts & bones everyday business of dog breeding and individual temperament and so on.

Now here is some one who at least seem to understand some of what I was saying. As far as Chuffy and fisher and a couple of others who IMO know little to nothing about the breed, this is as far as I go on this thread, because you simply have no clue, and turned this thread into exactly what I knew you would, your own propaganda.

I think this personal attack against those members is rude an unwarranted, and part of why we don't seem to be able to get along on these threads.  I think Xerxes is trying, on some of these areas, to get us to take the high road - so let's see if we can go along with his suggestion.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: jones

I don't know if this is something Millan himself would actually say but it has been heavily implied, if not outrightly stated, many times in this forum that there are really only 3 reasons why a dog does anything wrong, ever (including aggression, property destruction, etc): 1. Lack of exercise or breed-specific jobs, 2. Lack of leadership by the handler, 3. Negative emotional or "energy" influence of the handler (eg, coddling, anxiety, etc). I think this is where Awsomedog is coming from wrt to the dog aggression issue. Millan's show portrays all dog problems as handler problems, so there is no genetic imprint for dog aggression - except in extremely rare cases of mentally ill dogs I would suppose. As I've said before in another thread, his notion is of whole Dog, a perfect being who is only corrupted at the hands of humans. I likened him to St. Augustine, & maybe it's a bit Platonic too. It's very much untethered to the sort of guts & bones everyday business of dog breeding and individual temperament and so on.

Now here is some one who at least seem to understand some of what I was saying. As far as Chuffy and fisher and a couple of others who IMO know little to nothing about the breed, this is as far as I go on this thread, because you simply have no clue, and turned this thread into exactly what I knew you would, your own propaganda.

 
Sorry, I guess we all forgot that you are the be-all, end-all, pinnacle of knowledge on pit bulls and dog aggression.

Oh man, that would be so killer.

I am betting the bank that both you and Ella will pull it off someday.

Total queens you'll be. [sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to train Ella to be a therapy dog.

ORIGINAL: JM

Oh man, that would be so killer.

I am betting the bank that both you and Ella will pull it off someday.

Total queens you'll be. [sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to train Ella to be a therapy dog.

Thank you, so much!
I think it would be quite rad to be able to take her around children and have her be a reading dog, or take her to nursing homes to cheer up some of the elderly folks. I'm sure that being a therapy dog entails more than just that, but I would be willing to do it, if I had the time.

quoteRIGINAL: jones I don't know if this is something Millan himself would actually say but it has been heavily implied, if not outrightly stated, many times in this forum that there are really only 3 reasons why a dog does anything wrong, ever (including aggression, property destruction, etc): 1. Lack of exercise or breed-specific jobs, 2. Lack of leadership by the handler, 3. Negative emotional or "energy" influence of the handler (eg, coddling, anxiety, etc). I think this is where Awsomedog is coming from wrt to the dog aggression issue. Millan's show portrays all dog problems as handler problems, so there is no genetic imprint for dog aggression - except in extremely rare cases of mentally ill dogs I would suppose. As I've said before in another thread, his notion is of whole Dog, a perfect being who is only corrupted at the hands of humans. I likened him to St. Augustine, & maybe it's a bit Platonic too. It's very much untethered to the sort of guts & bones everyday business of dog breeding and individual temperament and so on.

Now here is some one who at least seem to understand some of what I was saying. As far as Chuffy and fisher and a couple of others who IMO know little to nothing about the breed, this is as far as I go on this thread, because you simply have no clue, and turned this thread into exactly what I knew you would, your own propaganda.

< Message edited by Awsomedog -- 1/27/2007 10:20:16 AM >

Awsomedog, did you read all of Jones' post? While she is accurately describing your philosophy on this issue, she is arguing that this philosophy is a logical fallacy--that it has very little to do with reality.

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

Awsomedog, did you read all of Jones' post? While she is accurately describing your philosophy on this issue, she is arguing that this philosophy is a logical fallacy--that it has very little to do with reality.

She understood what I was saying, she doesn't have to agree with it.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: jones

I don't know if this is something Millan himself would actually say but it has been heavily implied, if not outrightly stated, many times in this forum that there are really only 3 reasons why a dog does anything wrong, ever (including aggression, property destruction, etc): 1. Lack of exercise or breed-specific jobs, 2. Lack of leadership by the handler, 3. Negative emotional or "energy" influence of the handler (eg, coddling, anxiety, etc). I think this is where Awsomedog is coming from wrt to the dog aggression issue. Millan's show portrays all dog problems as handler problems, so there is no genetic imprint for dog aggression - except in extremely rare cases of mentally ill dogs I would suppose. As I've said before in another thread, his notion is of whole Dog, a perfect being who is only corrupted at the hands of humans. I likened him to St. Augustine, & maybe it's a bit Platonic too. It's very much untethered to the sort of guts & bones everyday business of dog breeding and individual temperament and so on.

Now here is some one who at least seem to understand some of what I was saying. As far as Chuffy and fisher and a couple of others who IMO know little to nothing about the breed, this is as far as I go on this thread, because you simply have no clue, and turned this thread into exactly what I knew you would, your own propaganda.

 
This is insulting and is not constructive.  I can appreciate you know more about this breed than I do and I would welcome being politely corrected if I have misled anyone or stated anything untrue about the breed.  I mean that quite sincerely - TELL ME if I've said anything that is not true, so that I don't repeat it to someone else and give them misinformation.  But please try to be polite about it.
 
As far as your remark about propaganda goes..... Pit bulls are rare here and BSL is already in place effectively banning them so I don't know why you think I have an agenda on that score.