pit bull, dog aggression, and obsession with ball???

I'm going to chime in here as a lover of the bully breeds. I have a SOMETIMES DA and at times HA pitbull. My dog Boss was abused severely as a pup and kept locked in a small crate inside a closet for the first 9 months of his life.
 
I will praise how wonderful the breed is all day long and will probably never be without one.. but would I deny their tendencies for DA, no? But one thing I will say is that these dogs don't just "turn" or "snap" and suddenly become dog aggressive.. usually there are signs before it happens and a responsible owner is aware of these things.
 
Because my dog can be both dog and human aggressive I am very careful about where I take him and the interactions he is allowed to have. I hate that he has a tendency toward human aggression, but I can't change his past, I can only deal in his present. Boss is overly friendly with his circle of dog and people friends, but new introductions are made VERY carefully and only with forewarning to anyone involved and planning on my part. He has a muzzle.. he hates it, but will tolerate it. He also hates to meet new people and dogs while on a leash, but tough cookies, I don't take the chance.
 
My opinion of why he hates the muzzle and leash when meeting new people and dogs is because they limit his control over defending himself.. he didn't have a chance for trust in his early years and will probably never get past that. It's my responsibility to see that he and others are safe.. to deny that would be ridiculous on my part.
 
And I guess Boss gets to be the weird one of the bunch.. when he first came to live with me he was dog aggressive with most every dog we came across, but as he reached the age of 2 he became friendly with them and it's not that big of an issue anymore.. but I still watch him very closely around new dogs. As far as leaving him alone with other dogs.. I do it and trust him completely to do so with the dogs he does now and loves.
 
When I got a second dog I purposely chose a puppy so that Boss would have a better chance of accepting her.. they are the best of friends and have been since day one. When she was real little I would come home on lunch to take her potty.. imagine my suprise one day to find that Boss has broken her out of her crate and him and his 8 week old puppy were both still alive and well cuddled on the couch.
 
Not all pitties are the same, not all have the tendencies to be DA and to generalize the breed is not fair to them and they cause BSL....
 
 

ORIGINAL: trishanne420

Not all pitties are the same, not all have the tendencies to be DA and to generalize the breed is not fair to them and they cause BSL....

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ORIGINAL: trishanne420

I'm going to chime in here as a lover of the bully breeds. I have a SOMETIMES DA and at times HA pitbull. My dog Boss was abused severely as a pup and kept locked in a small crate inside a closet for the first 9 months of his life.

I will praise how wonderful the breed is all day long and will probably never be without one.. but would I deny their tendencies for DA, no? But one thing I will say is that these dogs don't just "turn" or "snap" and suddenly become dog aggressive.. usually there are signs before it happens and a responsible owner is aware of these things.

OK...I'll give you that, there usually are signs but more often than not, there isn't.
Not signs that those who aren't experts on reading body language and posturing would be able to see.
When Ella goes into "the mode" (ha, that's what I call it), she stops and stiffens, and I cannot really describe it, but I've seen it SOOOO many times now that I know what to look for. If she were off leash, I'd have about 1/2 a second before she'd be TOO deep into "the mode" to get her out.

ORIGINAL: trishanne420Not all pitties are the same, not all have the tendencies to be DA and to generalize the breed is not fair to them and they cause BSL....

This quote kind of contradicts what you're saying in the first quote. I'm not trying to point out mistakes, I'm just unclear on what you really think.
Do you think that pit bulls have a tendancy towards DA or not?

No, not all pit bulls are going to have DA issues. But it IS a known trait amongst the breed.
A responsible pit bull owner doesn't deny this fact and is watchful for it. That doesn't mean that you lock your dog up in a house and never take it outside. It just takes an extra special eye to watch for signs.
And you know that with your dog[]


I'm also not saying to run around screaming "OH MY GOD, THESE PIT BULLS ARE HORRIBLY DOG AGGRESSIVE AND WILL KILL EVERY DOG IN SIGHT, QUICK! HIT THE DECK!"
Like they're monsters. I do not believe that, crap, I own one!



Why do I more often than not feel like a bad, irresponsible owner of a pit bull here and like I condone BSL because I think that potential owners of pit bulls need to be aware of the kind of dog they have and that the kind of dog they have has a history of DA issues and that plays a genetic part into the dog we have today? And that potential owners need to be enjoy their dogs, but not take their dogs to dog parks?

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

Do you think that pit bulls have a tendancy towards DA or not?

Yay[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif] for Chewy sticking around, and now that some are blocking maybe we can actually discuss the breed. DA is not a "pit" problem, any dog can be DA, the problem is when a *powerful breed* like pit, a rottie, a mastiff, or any of the other *powerful breed* has DA it's of course more dangerous than when a Boston Terrier has DA. Here's something to think about, how can anyone say a pit is *born naturally DA*? How do they no it's DA and not squirl aggressive, cat aggressive, cow aggressive, bird aggressive, etc, etc. Almost all dogs if not raised properly will try to attack cats. So we're back to, how much aggression in any dog is natural, and what is the responsibility of the owner to understand the dog they have and what *that* dog regardless of breed, needs as a dog, and make sure it's needs are fulfilled.

A responsible pit bull owner doesn't deny this fact and is watchful for it.

But honestly, the only fact is the fact that any responsible *powerful breed* owner should be aware of their dogs power, not that the breed itself is just born NDA. This is the point I was trying to make all along.

I'm also not saying to run around screaming "OH MY GOD, THESE PIT BULLS ARE HORRIBLY DOG AGGRESSIVE AND WILL KILL EVERY DOG IN SIGHT, QUICK! HIT THE DECK!"
Like they're monsters. I do not believe that, crap, I own one!

LOL That's good.

Why do I more often than not feel like a bad, irresponsible owner of a pit bull here and like I condone BSL because I think that potential owners of pit bulls need to be aware of the kind of dog they have and that the kind of dog they have has a history of DA issues and that plays a genetic part into the dog we have today? And that potential owners need to be enjoy their dogs, but not take their dogs to dog parks?

But the genetic isn't NDA because it's just a dog like any other, just more powerful, and that power has to be respected. You don't sound like a bad owner to me, just sounds like you may be looking at aggression without all the facts.

Glad you stuck around weather we agree or not. Now go give that killer a hug.[]

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog
Yay[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif] for Chewy sticking around, and now that some are blocking maybe we can actually discuss the breed. DA is not a "pit" problem, any dog can be DA, the problem is when a *powerful breed* like pit, a rottie, a mastiff, or any of the other *powerful breed* has DA it's of course more dangerous than when a Boston Terrier has DA. Here's something to think about, how can anyone say a pit is *born naturally DA*? How do they no it's DA and not squirl aggressive, cat aggressive, cow aggressive, bird aggressive, etc, etc. Almost all dogs if not raised properly will try to attack cats. So we're back to, how much aggression in any dog is natural, and what is the responsibility of the owner to understand the dog they have and what *that* dog regardless of breed, needs as a dog, and make sure it's needs are fulfilled.

 
I like what you said here but lets talk about different types dog on dog aggression and what to make of it.
 
My Drizzle, a Great Dane female kills any small animal that comes in the yard, cats, opossum, birds, frogs, etc.  When greeting the smaller dogs after a day of separation, she mouths/bites their heads, some times leaving small punctures.  When meeting new dogs she is excitable and drools a lot.  When people come in the yard, she greets them, but then when they are not looking she nips their behinds.
 
I have noticed from the hurt dog side, 3 different reactions of aggression stemming from play.  First, the hurt dog cries, yelps and that cry stops the aggressor.  No action on my part.  The second, the hurt dog growl, lunges, snaps back, then retreats.  The aggressor stands ground and I intervene by yelling HEY!  Both dogs come to me.  The 3rd is where the hurt dog snaps and hurts aggressor dog.  Aggressor dog retaliates and continues attacking with chase.  My action is to separate, so I grab a lawn chair and place between the fighting dogs and give a thunderous shout.  My strong behavior has not been seen by either dog so this puts them in a submissive state and I proceed to lecture on the evils of fighting.
 
Whenever I get a new foster, I watch and see their behavior after being hurt by another dog.  Very rarely do I have a dog that retaliates and chase but when I do that tells me I have to exercise caution in the future. 
 
I am fostering a Pittie mix, Newt, and he did retaliate against Marvin, a hound but he did not retaliate against Drizzle the Great Dane.  When meeting new dogs of his size or greater, the Pittie mix is ok.  When he met a puppy, he wanted to bite the dogs head off.

 
 

I am fostering a Pittie mix, Newt, and he did retaliate against Marvin, a hound but he did not retaliate against Drizzle the Great Dane. When meeting new dogs of his size or greater, the Pittie mix is ok. When he met a puppy, he wanted to bite the dogs head off.

 
So do you think this is just a matter of him knowing his limitations? He wants to assert his dominance but he knows he can only do so with certain size dogs?

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

I am fostering a Pittie mix, Newt, and he did retaliate against Marvin, a hound but he did not retaliate against Drizzle the Great Dane. When meeting new dogs of his size or greater, the Pittie mix is ok. When he met a puppy, he wanted to bite the dogs head off.

So do you think this is just a matter of him knowing his limitations? He wants to assert his dominance but he knows he can only do so with certain size dogs?

 
Thats my take, that the Pittie mix assesses the situation and knows a win and no win.  I did not think in terms of dominance but more from the element of revenge.  Is that possible? 

well, awsomedog, I don't feel we need to agree on whether or not DA tendancies run in pit bulls to agree that, regardless, they are a driven dog and a working breed and need to be well managed. AND they like to work and need to.


Ella DOES have DA issues and I have noticed that Ella is OK with other dogs as long as she is "working" or kept busy.
When we were bike riding with her in the summer and during the nicer parts of Fall, she would see other dogs but, for the most part, kept on going anyway. She was busy. I WAS pulled off my bike by her once so that she could go sniff a dog that was behind a fence. She didn't attack the dog or growl, thank GOD, because when she pulled me off I had dropped the leash.

My fiancee can bike her all day and she won't pull him off.
But during training when the trainer brings in her dog, we can get her to focus on us by continually giving her commands. Initially, Ella is bothered by the presence of the other dog, but we block her view of the other dog at first and make her follow commands and treat when she follows the commands.

Having a 3 1/2 ft. steel gate blocking off our foyer (so she can't bolt out the front door) has actually helped us a LOT with her "wait" command.

The other day I was walking her and we were walking down a street that is across from an open field that leads to a walk park. Another owner was walking their dog on leash through the field, coming towards our direction. I saw the dog before Ella and my fault was that I did not IMMEDIATELY act on seeing the dog first. I should have started jogging around the corner with her and kept her from being able to notice the dog. I misjudged and thought we'd turn the corner onto the street before she'd notice the dog. We didn't. She perked her ears and got into "the mode" stance. I calmly said, "let's go, Ella, come on" and tried walking forward with her. She tried, seriously, digging her nails into the sidewalk and turning herself opposite of the direction we were going. She didn't bark, she didn't growl. She whined. I had to push her butt around (not harshly) and start acting like an idiot to get her attention. I started making weird, sharp noises and started jogging forward with her. It wasn't easy, but when the dog was no longer in her sight, she calmed down and was more compliant.
But this was towards a dog that was on leash and with their owner. Imagine had this been a loose dog with NO owner in sight, which DOES happen around here.
A lot times I notice with Ella that it's not necessarily upon just SEEING a dog, it's almost like she waits to see how the dog is looking at HER before she decides how she's going to respond to the dog. If a dog is at her level and is sitting looking at her, Ella goes MAD. She does NOT like a dog in a sit position staring at her or making eye contact with her. I don't know if in doggy language this is intimidating to her or if it makes her feel challenged. Whatever it is, I'm learning to read her signs for reaction so that I can intervene at the appropriate time. And that's about the best I can do in that area, other than keep good control over her to make sure she cannot attack any dog.
Off leashers, well, I cannot control that. I can control my end of the leash and Ella's but if an off leash dog is persistent in bothering Ella, well, that's what I got Direct Stop, pepper spray, extra leash, extra collar, and a break stick for.

Thats my take, that the Pittie mix assesses the situation and knows a win and no win. I did not think in terms of dominance but more from the element of revenge. Is that possible?

 
Does he only get snappy out of retaliation? He never goes after a puppy as the "first aggressor"?

Is Ella always under human control by being leashed when meeting other dogs?  What you describes sounds to me like leash reactivity and I have had all sorts of fosters dogs with this.

I don't know if in doggy language this is intimidating to her or if it makes her feel challenged. Whatever it is, I'm learning to read her signs for reaction so that I can intervene at the appropriate time.

 
I definitely think things like that set a dog off more than others. I imagine a dog looking directly at her looks to her like a challenge or just makes her feel vulnerable. A dog can take off quickly from the sit position, whereas a down positon is maybe less intimidating as it shows the dog is relaxed and non-challenging.
 
Scout tends to have more issues with herding breeds, like BCs. I think their fast movements make her nervous.

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

Thats my take, that the Pittie mix assesses the situation and knows a win and no win. I did not think in terms of dominance but more from the element of revenge. Is that possible?

Does he only get snappy out of retaliation? He never goes after a puppy as the "first aggressor"?

 
Yes, turns aggressor after being hurt by the hound.  Sometimes the hound snaps at the Pittie mix if Pittie mix tries to share hound's doggie bed.  I say sometimes because hound sometimes allows it.  My observation with the puppy was that puppy was just near, no interaction and he snapped.

ORIGINAL: DPU.

Yes, turns aggressor after being hurt by the hound.  Sometimes the hound snaps at the Pittie mix if Pittie mix tries to share hound's doggie bed.  I say sometimes because hound sometimes allows it.  My observation with the puppy was that puppy was just near, no interaction and he snapped.

 
Wow DPU what happened? from 747 posts to only 4 posts? did you forget your password? []

ORIGINAL: DPU.

Is Ella always under human control by being leashed when meeting other dogs? What you describes sounds to me like leash reactivity and I have had all sorts of fosters dogs with this.

Yes, but let's just say that I KNOW enough to know not to trust that it's NOT just leash reactivity. And that is a "my dog" specific statement, not a generalized "I know it's not just leash reactivity because all pit bulls are...blah blah blah".

ORIGINAL: DPU.

I like what you said here but lets talk about different types dog on dog aggression and what to make of it.

Ok, I'm up for that.[]

My Drizzle, a Great Dane female kills any small animal that comes in the yard, cats, opossum, birds, frogs, etc.

How about we start with this, and i hope you don't mind if I break down your post so I can be as clear as possible. Have you considered teaching her it's not ok to kill *anything*.

When greeting the smaller dogs after a day of separation, she mouths/bites their heads, some times leaving small punctures.

See with aggression prey is prey, and by being allowed to kill small animals simply spills over to other animals like small dogs.  Does that make sense?

When meeting new dogs she is excitable and drools a lot.  When people come in the yard, she greets them, but then when they are not looking she nips their behinds.

See, your aware of your dogs behavior, so you just have to change it. 1. She shouldn't be allowed to meet other dogs while exicted. 2. I never allow unbalanced dogs meet face to face. Instead we meet by going for a walk together until the excitemnt is gone.

I have noticed from the hurt dog side, 3 different reactions of aggression stemming from play.  First, the hurt dog cries, yelps and that cry stops the aggressor.  No action on my part.

While this may be the case with your dog, it's not the case with all dogs. And allowing aggression in the first place only teaches the dog the behavior is ok.

The second, the hurt dog growl, lunges, snaps back, then retreats.  The aggressor stands ground and I intervene by yelling HEY!  Both dogs come to me.

The aggressor is picking fights, standing her ground, showing her dominance, and doing so right in front of you. I'm glad they come to you when you call, however a well balanced dog not only doesn't feel the need to be aggressive, but certainly would display such behavior infront of who they *know* is the real leader. And that would be you.

The 3rd is where the hurt dog snaps and hurts aggressor dog.  Aggressor dog retaliates and continues attacking with chase.  My action is to separate, so I grab a lawn chair and place between the fighting dogs and give a thunderous shout.

These are not different types of aggression, they are different reactions to aggression. The bottom line here is, the leader (you) should never allow any aggression in their pack. This only confuses all the dogs and creates unbalance in the pack. the aggressor doesn't believe the human is the true leader and therefore blieves it's ok to act that way. the others lose faith and trust in the human because they don't understand why the aggression is being allowed to happen. And by being allowed, I simply mean it hasn't been stopped. a dog who shows they get play by the rules, and get along with the pack shouldn't ever be around the pack unless he/she is calm, and! being supervised. That will only change once the dog has proven his or herself. Do you see where I'm coming from?

My strong behavior has not been seen by either dog so this puts them in a submissive state and I proceed to lecture on the evils of fighting.

They should always see as a good, strong, and fair leader. And lecturing dogs does teach them the way they learn, lecturing is for humans. Here's something i tell people all the time. You know if what your doing works, because it worked, you know it worked because it changed the behavior and the dog is no longer doing what you don't want them to do.

Whenever I get a new foster, I watch and see their behavior after being hurt by another dog.  Very rarely do I have a dog that retaliates and chase but when I do that tells me I have to exercise caution in the future.

Why not prevent the dog from being hurt to begin with? And I'm honestly asking that.

I am fostering a Pittie mix, Newt, and he did retaliate against Marvin, a hound but he did not retaliate against Drizzle the Great Dane.  When meeting new dogs of his size or greater, the Pittie mix is ok.  When he met a puppy, he wanted to bite the dogs head off.

And many factors other than NDA could be at work here.

Hope I made my points clearly and you can see that I enjoy when this is the type of discussion we can have. And while we may not agree we can be civil.

Wow! it's getting better here already.[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]