How would a....???

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Just to clarify, the great thing about us English is that we have a confusing and complex language where many words have more than one meaning.  "Behaviour" does indeed mean what Awsomedog says - as in "the child sat at the table quietly and ate his greens, this was excellent behaviour".  But it is still perfectly correct to use it in the context spiritdogs used.  "when the dogs bottom hit the floor I captured it with a clicker so that I could ut the behaviour on cue". 

Wonderful thing language.

Now what was the discussion meant to be about again?

While yes it is wonderful, perhaps it's part of the problem amounst the "dog training crowd. Perhaps it's why some trainers fail their clients and dogs, trying to use OBT to deal with behavior issues, which IMPO from what I've seen, doesn't work. I truely believe this because I get called in, when others have failed, and my clients come fron word of mouth.

So I ask those that think other wise to answer this for me, (perhaps you know something the trainers around here don't know) if  "when the dogs bottom hit the floor I captured it with a clicker so that I could ut the behaviour on cue", is in fact behavior, then what is teaching a skill. I think my dogs are skilled at carrying something from me, to my wife at the other end of the house. I think a dog jumping on people is showing bad manners (behavior).

Could we be thinking along these lines? If my dog is sitting and not jumping on people, then my dog is giving me the desired behavior *I* like to see. Is this a grey area? Because I've seen dogs with great OBT skills, *still have really bad manners* (behavior).  Perhaps for me it just made it easier to train dog handlers, and now people to work (what I consider) in both area's.

This is my way and my opinion, and I shouldn't say or tell any of you, "that's how it is". As always you should do and belive in, what works for you.

Scientifically speaking, any action an organism takes is a behavior.  

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Just to clarify, the great thing about us English is that we have a confusing and complex language where many words have more than one meaning.  "Behaviour" does indeed mean what Awsomedog says - as in "the child sat at the table quietly and ate his greens, this was excellent behaviour".  But it is still perfectly correct to use it in the context spiritdogs used.  "when the dogs bottom hit the floor I captured it with a clicker so that I could ut the behaviour on cue". 

Wonderful thing language.

Now what was the discussion meant to be about again?

While yes it is wonderful, perhaps it's part of the problem amounst the "dog training crowd. Perhaps it's why some trainers fail their clients and dogs, trying to use OBT to deal with behavior issues, which IMPO from what I've seen, doesn't work. I truely believe this because I get called in, when others have failed, and my clients come fron word of mouth.

So I ask those that think other wise to answer this for me, (perhaps you know something the trainers around here don't know) if  "when the dogs bottom hit the floor I captured it with a clicker so that I could ut the behaviour on cue", is in fact behavior, then what is teaching a skill. I think my dogs are skilled at carrying something from me, to my wife at the other end of the house. I think a dog jumping on people is showing bad manners (behavior).

Could we be thinking along these lines? If my dog is sitting and not jumping on people, then my dog is giving me the desired behavior *I* like to see. Is this a grey area? Because I've seen dogs with great OBT skills, *still have really bad manners* (behavior).  Perhaps for me it just made it easier to train dog handlers, and now people to work (what I consider) in both area's.

This is my way and my opinion, and I shouldn't say or tell any of you, "that's how it is". As always you should do and belive in, what works for you.

 
What you are missing is that the words skill and behaviour are interchangeable when used in the context of the example spiritdogs gave.  This isn't my opinion or what I believe in, it's just a fact of the English language and removed from the fact that some trainers mistakenly address some behaviour problems with obt training alone.  I agree with you that this frequently doesn't work (although it can help).  I just think it would be helpful if we were all reading off the same page here and not getting our wires crossed with terminilogy.

ORIGINAL: snownose

Snownose, a CM follower rather than me

Certain people have done a good job slapping a label on me..........is that due to me not having the time to teach 5 dogs how to "Bow"????

 
I think someone who uses Cesar's basic priciples where they see fit, would be more appropriately referred to as a "leader". []
 
Someone who may choose to teach their dog to do a bow "trick", could be referred to as being able to "train" their dog...through operant conditioning. 
 
Whether the "training" is done via Karen Pryor (click/treat) methods, by Leerburg's methods (oh my!), or by waiting until the dog offers the behavior naturally and using classical conditioning through word association and praise (and/or a treat) accomplishes the same goal...training it is.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy


What you are missing is that the words skill and behaviour are interchangeable when used in the context of the example spiritdogs gave.  This isn't my opinion or what I believe in, it's just a fact of the English language and removed from the fact that some trainers mistakenly address some behaviour problems with obt training alone.  I agree with you that this frequently doesn't work (although it can help).  I just think it would be helpful if we were all reading off the same page here and not getting our wires crossed with terminilogy.

Yours and spiritdogs points are well taken. I think you made good points and I get where your coming from. I still have to follow my way though, *however* maybe this shows me I can find away to explain the meaning of what I say, better. Growth, is a beautiful thing.

I think someone who uses Cesar's basic priciples where they see fit, would be more appropriately referred to as a "leader".

 
 
Ah, I was starting to worry................[]