How would a....???

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

ORIGINAL: DPU

BTW, I would never teach a dog to bow, it makes no sense to me and serves no purpose at all.

Then you are missing out.  The very teaching of any cue strengthens your bond with the dog and increases his capacity to learn new things as well as mentally stimulating him.  I've taught my dog loads of useless stuff just for the fun of it - because they enjoy it and so do I and we'd run out of "formal" and useful things to teach....  But I'm probably a complete weirdo and on my own there.

 
So then after the dog fetches a beer out of the frig, you want me to teach him to bow?  The dog's got to keep some dignity. []

Personally I don't see CM and Frawley in the same corner really. While they do have some things in common that from the standpoint of a purely possitive trainer/behaviourist may be enough to cluster them in a category, i.e. the use of leash corrections, and similarities in their use of pack theory (which is not identical by the way), I do think that Millan is a lot milder than Frawley. Of course, if you're dead set against the use of +P of any sort, yes they are one and the same.

On the flip side of that coin, the fact that someone hesitates to use +P right off the bat and looks for alternative means of getting a result, when seen from the standpoint of a more old school trainer, may seem like a weak, ineffective, condescending way of dealing with a dog.

The reason I read this kind of forum is because there are as many opinions as there are posters, and that multitud of points of view with some added common sense should provide me with a reasonable answer to my dog problems. We ALL have a person that we don't agree with to the point where no matter what that person says, the fact that a statement is coming out of their mouth will automatically make it wrong. Also, we all have people we believe in beyond the point of reason, we will adapt our logic to trick ourselves into making sense out of anything and everything they say. Voicing our opinions about said people are what I would define as bashing and worshiping respectively.

If we try hard enough we can find the baiting aspect of ANY question, let's give posters the benefit of the doubt. Also, the original question states "How would a follower of CM or Leerburg train a dog to bow on command? ". If I'm not mistaken it's directed to two different groups, CM followers on one side, and Leerburg followers separately. The fact that someone can be both at the same time is a completely different story, and the way the question is stated doesn't cluster CM and Frawley, unless you want it too. Why is anyone offended by the "follower"?, again, a valid question, we use the "all possitive people" term on a regular basis.

open minds people, those are the kind that absorb knowledge........

He isn't a jerk.

Thank you Anne..I was going to abstain from making any further remarks on this thread, but honestly the tone has gotten even uglier than it was before my post.  My simple reasoning behind my defense of Ed is that I DO actually KNOW the individual behind the posts and as his friend I unfortunately take the attacks personal. I would feel the same if I had gotten to know any one of you on this forum as well and I felt that you were being unjustly represented. Despite what you may believe there have been countless times where he had gone in believing one opinion to be true only to be swayed to another way of thinking after civil discussion. He is about as open minded and kind as they come.

SO sure, go ahead and say the "Calvary” has come in to defend him…say whatever you want but I think the fact that there are individuals that will do that for him speaks loudly to his character.

Perhaps we all can get back to the original question now….   

Original Awsomedog

 Here we go, you obviously never had a dog on leash try to attack you,

Ed, come on, Frawley hangs super aggressive dogs

See I knew we could agree on something!  []

ORIGINAL: snownose

Having a load of dogs....lol....I teach what needs to happen....and trying to sort out problems from the rescues....sorry, teaching bows are out......does that make me any less capable?

I think not...............

Not at all snownose.  Teaching a bow is, at worst, a cute parlor trick.  At best teaching, or capturing this behavior and assigning it a cue helps strengthen the bond between dog and the handler. 

Having multiple dogs and teaching them how to behave is of much more importance.  It's quite easy to use molding and positioning to teach things such as heel, finish, sit, stay, shake, and down; bow, on the other hand requires a bit more creativity.  It's this spark of creativity  that allows both the dog and trainer to "click." 

Teaching dogs to behave according to our rules can be quite a difficult task, both in management and in technique-especially if they are in close quarters.  Since you have multiple dogs, my hat's off to you.

Well, frankly, I think that Ed would not be so much in a quandary about how CM's followers would teach a behavior (and a behavior can be either a trick or an obedience move, simple or complex), if they weren't always peppering each training and behavior thread with the advice of only one or two people,

 
Who is 'they'? [sm=uhoh.gif]

Well gosh....I wasn't aware I was attacking Ed. I simply was offering a different view, trying to show him how his post "could" have been read...if the people reading it, are already a bit...wary, as it were...due to past flare ups on topics very, very similar. It is difficult to see nuance and think deeply on something if you are waiting for something bad to happen...lol....that's all I was actually trying to say.
 
Ed...if you feel I attacked you I apologize very sincerely to you...I was hoping the way I phrased my first post would help you realize I was just trying to turn the post a bit so we might see it in a different light, you had something in mind far too subtle for a scent hound person, lol...[sm=peace.gif]

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

, you had something in mind far too subtle for a scent hound person, lol...[sm=peace.gif]

Gina, don't forget PHs are sight and scent hounds!  They also use their ears alot in hunting-trying to detect the ferret in the rabbit hole.

ORIGINAL: DPU
BTW, I would never teach a dog to bow, it makes no sense to me and serves no purpose at all.

You may think it's just a silly parlor trick, which it is, but if you have ever seen an elder's face light up when your therapy dog bows, or does any of a number of other tricks that make them smile, you might think differently.  And, to be honest, the dogs seem to love the attention from the seniors, too. [] 

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

Well, frankly, I think that Ed would not be so much in a quandary about how CM's followers would teach a behavior (and a behavior can be either a trick or an obedience move, simple or complex), if they weren't always peppering each training and behavior thread with the advice of only one or two people,

Who is 'they'? [sm=uhoh.gif]

Gina, no baiting.  [] [sm=devil.gif]

See I knew we could agree on something!

 
You supersneak......yes, we do....[]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs


Well, frankly, I think that Ed would not be so much in a quandary about how CM's followers would teach a behavior (and a behavior can be either a trick or an obedience move, simple or complex).

Here's where we differ. I don't think of commands or tricks as behaviors, I think of them as skills. Behavior is IMO, how one acts. For example (and we'll use children here, AND NO, I'm not humanizing dog) if a child screams in a restaurant that's bad behavior, if they sit quietly and eat their food that's good behavior. If they add 2+2 = 4 or spell cat, that's a skill, *not a behavior*. So why do some trainers not get this? And of course this is OMPO, and I'd love to here another take on it.

if they weren't always peppering each training and behavior thread with the advice of only one or two people, namely CM and Leerburg.  They never seem to do anything but generalize, and they rarely get specific about how they use what they have learned from these people to teach their own dogs a behavior, or correct a specific problem.

Now while neither where my teachers, I've learned somethings from them the same as I have many others. I only discuss Cesar here because that's is what this section is for, however I went into some detail as to how I would do it. Sorry if that didn't count.

We have people who post on this section who claim to be able to manage dogs, yet they need someone to defend them for not being able to describe how to teach a simple "bow", the most elementary of "tricks" (odd that tricks seem to be demeaned, when they are just behaviors like any other).

I do work with dogs and don't care if anyone believes that or, because it won't effect my life. I need no one to defend me. I did discride how to do a bow, and I think tricks are great.

There are several ways to teach bows, but I am not a CM or Leerburg devotee, so if anyone wants to know how I do it, start a thread in the other section, and I'm happy to oblige.

And there you go.

Teaching dogs to bow is cute, but it has no business in what my situation is............
 
Still, I don't see how I am missing out......my success comes with all the dogs becoming a pack and getting along...........so, they can be a part of the family.........[]

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Original Awsomedog

Here we go, you obviously never had a dog on leash try to attack you,

Ed, come on, Frawley hangs super aggressive dogs

See I knew we could agree on something!  []

I must have missed something, what is it we're agreeing on?

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs


Well, frankly, I think that Ed would not be so much in a quandary about how CM's followers would teach a behavior (and a behavior can be either a trick or an obedience move, simple or complex).

Here's where we differ. I don't think of commands or tricks as behaviors, I think of them as skills. Behavior is IMO, how one acts. For example (and we'll use children here, AND NO, I'm not humanizing dog) if a child screams in a restaurant that's bad behavior, if they sit quietly and eat their food that's good behavior. If they add 2+2 = 4 or spell cat, that's a skill, *not a behavior*. So why do some trainers not get this? And of course this is OMPO, and I'd love to here another take on it.

if they weren't always peppering each training and behavior thread with the advice of only one or two people, namely CM and Leerburg.  They never seem to do anything but generalize, and they rarely get specific about how they use what they have learned from these people to teach their own dogs a behavior, or correct a specific problem.

Now while neither where my teachers, I've learned somethings from them the same as I have many others. I only discuss Cesar here because that's is what this section is for, however I went into some detail as to how I would do it. Sorry if that didn't count.

We have people who post on this section who claim to be able to manage dogs, yet they need someone to defend them for not being able to describe how to teach a simple "bow", the most elementary of "tricks" (odd that tricks seem to be demeaned, when they are just behaviors like any other).

I do work with dogs and don't care if anyone believes that or, because it won't effect my life. I need no one to defend me. I did discride how to do a bow, and I think tricks are great.

There are several ways to teach bows, but I am not a CM or Leerburg devotee, so if anyone wants to know how I do it, start a thread in the other section, and I'm happy to oblige.

And there you go.

 
Awesomedog,  How come you have the need to take a post (any post) divide it up and answer it as if it was all about you?
 
Like I tell my husband, its not always about you![]