The Alpha Roll

Well the link for an aplha roll video is in the video thread, you just have to look for it, here is the same video from another source

http://www.ifilm.com/video/2778009

Pay attention that the dog was never hurt, she didnt have any broken bones or blood coming out of her

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

The goes for the bite, I take hold of them, calmly, but assertively (keeping me and them safe) place them down on their side, use gental but firm pressure, allow them to relax (which they *always* do) then I let them up. What's the benefit? Well the dog isn't now trying to attack me or the other dog. So now please feel free to explain to me, how I'm being abusive. If a parent restains a child who is acting out of control, are they abusing the child? And no kids are not dogs and dogs are not kids, but the analogy fits.

So point out the abuse here please.

(emphasis added)

Thats a good explanation

Agree with Awsomedog, when you hold your kid you are not being barbaric, when police handcuff someone they are not being barbaric, they even put people in the ground for their own security when the guy is acting aggressive, should those people file a law suit because being  in the ground is being abused? and the police is even  rude when they do that; restraining helps the dog to get relaxed, to "come back"  to be calm again, you are not hitting, kicking or choking your dog while doing this

Whats the first thing people do when they have a friend in a fight? they breake it up sometimes by hugging their friend, are they being barbaric? arent those friends being calm after that? for the trainer own security is safer instead of hugging the dog just to put him in the ground, the trainer is not smashing the dog in the ground

We cant help stupid peeple applying this technique to puppies or dogs that have nothing to do with it, but like i said before, in the right moment, with the right attitude and doing it correctly is harmless for the dog, if someone doesnt know what he/she is doing then it can be dangerous for the owner

My opinion is that whatever works is good, as long as it's not abusive. ... The biggest problem I have with alpha-rolling is it is a dangerous thing to try with many dogs. Most owners have zero leadership skills and cannot handle the repercussions of when the dog gets sick of being man-handled and challenges the owner because they don't have that type of relationship to begin with. IMO, there are better ways to deal with situations that will get the same end result.
 
And when restrain my kids I don#%92t throw them to the floor, I grab there hands and sit them next to me.  I do the same with my dogs.
 
My DH read that restraining a dog until it submits was showing leadership so when we first got our Swissy he use to do it all the time.  Not out of anger mind you.  He would just lay on the floor with him, have him lay by him and put his leg over him and hug him until he stopped trying to get up.  He did this all the time.  Now at 2-1/2 when my DH does this my dog just submits and lies with him without any movement.   My point, is that they do learn that they should just be subordinate because they aren#%92t going anywhere but if I were to do this out of “dominates#%92 and during a heighten situation my dog would lash out I believe.
 

I've tried it on my dog, and I wouldn't do it again... First, because my dog never surrendered.. He got up and went after me (I was quick). Also, I wouldn't do it again because it didn't feel natural to me. (CM in his book says it 'feels natural' for him to do it.) I felt like a little kid copying adult actions - a parrot.

Personally, I think I would worry more about my dog if he allowed himself to be put down like that.

Even more so if he allowed a stranger to do it.

But I came from an era when dogs were respected for being dogs.

A "good dog" barked at strangers, chased off stray dogs and such and such. 

What use to be expected from a dog is now labeled aggressive or problem behavior.

Thanks for the vid espencer.  It shows that CM does use the alpha roll (where the dog is flipped on his back) as well as merely rolling him onto his side.  I was unsure about that. 
 
As an aside (and possibly a bit OT), did the show include an explanation why he did it differently the second time?  There was also no explanation as to what he was actually doing and why he was doing it that way, or which parts were dangerous and why.  It would be nice if whoever does the editing could squeeze in a bit more info.  As it was the clip made him look inconsistent and the way it was presented was a bit simplistic, which seemed inappropriate given that this is what CM describes as a "red zone" dog. 
 
It's frustrating because one pool of people is saying "if you do this the dog will believe you are trying to kill him" and the other is saying"actually dogs do forcibly pin one another to ground and not just when they are intent on killing the other dog".  In trying to draw an informed conclusion on this one, I'm trying to track down the research or even anecdotal eye witness accounts that support both sides of the theory.  The latter is proving to be more elusive.  I thought someone here would be able to point me to some relevant CM articles/clips, but so far whatever I've found isn't backed up in any way.  In the one interview he said, it's "instinctual".  It feels right to him and it gets him the results he wanted, that's it.  It might be that as yet there is nothing documented for me to look into it in any more depth, but if anyone is able to point me in the right direction I'd be grateful.

ORIGINAL: JM

Personally, I think I would worry more about my dog if he allowed himself to be put down like that.

Why? because then he is not a "macho" dog? a dog is not less of a dog if he allows that, his ego is not hurt but it sounds that yours would,  i think there is a lot more going on inside your mind that what it's inside his []

Here is a really good wolf link.  Well resourced. It goes into rolls further on.http://www.mnforsustain.org/wolf_mech_dominance_alpha_status.htm

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Thanks for the vid espencer.  It shows that CM does use the alpha roll (where the dog is flipped on his back) as well as merely rolling him onto his side.  I was unsure about that. 

As an aside (and possibly a bit OT), did the show include an explanation why he did it differently the second time?  There was also no explanation as to what he was actually doing and why he was doing it that way, or which parts were dangerous and why.  It would be nice if whoever does the editing could squeeze in a bit more info.  As it was the clip made him look inconsistent and the way it was presented was a bit simplistic, which seemed inappropriate given that this is what CM describes as a "red zone" dog. 

It's frustrating because one pool of people is saying "if you do this the dog will believe you are trying to kill him" and the other is saying"actually dogs do forcibly pin one another to ground and not just when they are intent on killing the other dog".  In trying to draw an informed conclusion on this one, I'm trying to track down the research or even anecdotal eye witness accounts that support both sides of the theory.  The latter is proving to be more elusive.  I thought someone here would be able to point me to some relevant CM articles/clips, but so far whatever I've found isn't backed up in any way.  In the one interview he said, it's "instinctual".  It feels right to him and it gets him the results he wanted, that's it.  It might be that as yet there is nothing documented for me to look into it in any more depth, but if anyone is able to point me in the right direction I'd be grateful.

No.  It has nothing to do with macho.  Nor ego.  But learned helplessness. 

I don't want my dog in that state of mind.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: JM

Personally, I think I would worry more about my dog if he allowed himself to be put down like that.

Why? because then he is not a "macho" dog? a dog is not less of a dog if he allows that, his ego is not hurt but it sounds that yours would,  i think there is a lot more going on inside your mind that what it's inside his []

ORIGINAL: JM

No.  It has nothing to do with macho.  Nor ego.  But learned helplessness. 

I don't want my dog in that state of mind.

Can you explain why an alpha roll would make your dog feel helpless?

Here you go...complete with references and links.  No need to thank me.  Just returning the favor. There is a pretty good link to a pdf at the bottom from the APDT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

Despite the dangers, a few trainers (rarely behaviorists) still use the alpha roll or recommend its use.

I've found through personal experience and not what I read anywhere, that many of those that don't use it simply don't know how to do it correctly. That's something to take into account.

By the way, it's been some time sinse I've read their book, and I'll be more than happy to research it myself sinse that what I tell others to do, but could you show me where TMONS say it's a bad thing to do.

This is just too easy.

Make sure you read the foundation of research and study part. 


[linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness[/link]

On edit:  I am going to clue you in on something because I know you are not going to get it.  This "calm submissive" thing  that CM has going on...is nothing but learned helplessness.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: JM

No.  It has nothing to do with macho.  Nor ego.  But learned helplessness. 

I don't want my dog in that state of mind.

Can you explain why an alpha roll would make your dog feel helpless?

"Learned helplessness" is a recognised term used to describe an aspect of human or animal behaviour in times of stress.

[linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness[/link]

[linkhttp://www.docpotter.com/boclass-25helplessness.html]http://www.docpotter.com/boclass-25helplessness.html[/link]

Just a note of caution.
 
I'd be highly suspicious of much of anything the APDT promotes as "facts" or circulates as "scientific". 
 
They are the primary group of "Positive Only" extremists. 
 
There are a few trainers in this organization which do not fall into this catagory, but most of them are way over the top in their belief system and beyond aggressive in their attacks towards anyone who does not fall within it.
 
Do a general net search of "APDT positive only" and do some research before you trust their "scientific" data.
 
 

"It thinks that it has no control over its situation and that whatever it does is futile."

Control: to exercise restraint or direction over; dominate; command.

So is not a dog helpless when he is on a leash? or he has control over the situation? i believe one thing is having a little bit of freedom and another being in control, is your dog in control of the walk or you?

Is your dog helpless because he wanted to sleep in your bed and you didnt let him? is your dog helpless because he wanted to eat what you were having in your plate but he could not?

Is your dog in control of something in your house? or he is just following your rules which is different?

If a dog is helpless because he is not in cotrol then the whole world is full of helpless poor dogs, raise your hands if your dog controls your house, because if  he does not then according with JM then your dog is helpless []

We can spend days looking for definitions in a "definition war", have you done it? do you have the necessary experience to talk about alpha rolling? or just because you "feel" this or that would happen then thats the way it is?

ORIGINAL: Angelique

Just a note of caution.

I'd be highly suspicious of much of anything the APDT promotes as "facts" or circulates as "scientific". 

They are the primary group of "Positive Only" extremists. 

There are a few trainers in this organization which do not fall into this catagory, but most of them are way over the top in their belief system and beyond aggressive in their attacks towards anyone who does not fall within it.

Do a general net search of "APDT positive only" and do some research before you trust their "scientific" data.

 
It may be more less Positive Onlys than you think.  My understanding that it does take much to become a member.  In October I used APDT to find a truly positive trainer for a specific dog and its case and was surprised what I found when I performed the interviews.  You will notice now Spiritsdog qualifies her recommendation of APDT.