The Alpha Roll

Yup Angelique you are right on the money.  We do learn these things over time, don't we?

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

Never used it, never would,  there are to many other means to correcting a dogs behavior.  Especially with an aggessive dog, I would stay clear of an alpha roll.

Here's my problem with your post. You give answer, but follow it up with no reasons. Gives no insight, and is basically useless.

I think it is bad news all around. 

Some dogs would not tolerate this.  And would tolerate it less coming from a stranger such as a behavorist or prof. trainer.

My dog is not aggressive.  But...he is strong willed and very independant.

He would go into destroy mode in a heartbeat.

Not only would he go into destroy mode, he would come out on top of the poor dumb soul who tried such a thing.

While he is a pretty good dog most of the time...he is still a dog, and very instinctual.

So concerning the alpha roll....choose  wisely your dog when you do decide to do it. Or you may come out of it without a face.

Awsomedog, first off my opinion differs from yours.  End of.  I choose not to use the technique because I feel it is abusive.  You should not take that as a personal slight because that's where debates get heated and unpleasant.  There is plenty of material out there which I am sure you already aware of which can give you the reasoning behind why it is seen as abusive.  Secondly, we're not necessarily even on the same page as to what constitutes the "roll" and the context it is used in - for example, Cesar uses it for training to get the dog to submit to him, while it sounds like you use it in emergencies where the priority is to restrain the dog and prevent anyone being bitten.
 
Most importantly, the main focus of the thread was meant to be Cesars views on the technique - how it should be done, when, when it should be avoided, how he defends it to the people who don't agree with it etc.  And looky here, I've answered my own question (in part at any rate):
 
You use what's known as the alpha roll [flipping a dog on its back and holding the animal in that position to emphasize the human's dominance] in your training. This is a highly controversial technique among trainers and behaviorists. What's your response to those who feel it should not be done and that it's harmful to use this technique?
That's their point of view. It's the difference between going to school and the dogs being your school. One is the intellectual knowledge, the other one is instinctual. I am instinctual. I'm open to [other trainers'] beliefs and I'm open to their knowledge. They close their minds. They say their way is the only way, and my way is the wrong way. That's not a very good leader. If you study a pack of dogs, the first authority figure is the mom, and the mom does pin the puppies down. It's an instinctual relationship that I have to establish with them. It's for the benefit of their species. The reason why I'm able to accomplish what I accomplish is because I am calm-assertive to [the dogs]. So the mother is the first calm-assertive energy they know, then it's the pack leader. Domination, dominating, and the alpha roll exist, and will exist, until we get rid of the species of dog.
[In his 2006 book Cesar's Way, Millan cautions the reader that only a professional should ever forcibly put a dog on its side. With a dominant or aggressive dog, he says, an inexperienced person could be bitten, mauled, or attacked.]
 
I've got both positives and negatives from that excerpt, but unfortunately suspect that sharing them would be constituted as "bashing".  It's a shame that the forum is so volatile at the moment that it hinders discussion and prevents people from comparing points of view.  Although I would point out in response to spiritdogs - he doesn't deny that he does use the "true roll" (flipping the dog on his back) He doesn't differentiate that there's a difference between that and simply laying the dog on its side (which is what I have seen him do in his shows).  Perhaps thats just editing.
 
I'd be interested to hear of any first hand accounts where people know of a dog performing the "roll" on another dog as  I have not seen it myself.  As I have never bred a litter of puppies, or lived in a house where a litter of puppies was bred, I haven't had the opportunity to see the dam doing this to her puppies either, as Cesar decribes, so anyone who does have this experience, speak up!
 

It appears the answer was had before this baiting thread was ever opened.
 
 

Moderator here. Please continue this discussion without rude/condescending remarks and personal attacks/debates.

ORIGINAL: JM

I think it is bad news all around. 

Some dogs would not tolerate this.  And would tolerate it less coming from a stranger such as a behavorist or prof. trainer.

I'm in this situation a lot, are you? I've yet to have it back fire on me. That's a little more than a opinion, it's what i see in real life.

My dog is not aggressive.  But...he is strong willed and very independant.

He would go into destroy mode in a heartbeat.

How do you know this? Has your dog ever been in that situation? No. Sounds alot like assuming on your part.

Not only would he go into destroy mode, he would come out on top of the poor dumb soul who tried such a thing.

Really, why's that. I actually deal with human aggressive dogs such as Rotties, GSD'a, CC's, CMD's, Mastiffs. Not one of them has "come out on top". Now why do you think that is? Again, sounds like assumtions on your part.

While he is a pretty good dog most of the time...he is still a dog, and very instinctual

I always find that speach for someone interesting.

So concerning the alpha roll....choose  wisely your dog when you do decide to do it. Or you may come out of it without a face.

I really don't care what dog it is. Never had to, and never will.

I hope saying someone is making assumtions is not considered a personal attack, but more of a opinion. If it comes across as a attack then a apology is in order from me.

It is not an assumption.  After 12 years, I know my dog. No strange animal nor human would alpha roll him.  No if and or buts about it.

I think it is dangerous to promote the ideal that all dogs can be alpha rolled.  We have quite a few "younger" folks come in to this forum with "mouthy" dogs who could end up without a face for doing it to the wrong dog.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

I hope saying someone is making assumtions is not considered a personal attack, but more of a opinion. If it comes across as a attack then a apology is in order from me.

It can also be dangerous to give advice on a forum about how to give a leash correction, without being there in person. Which is why you need hands-on, eyes-on help from a professional when your dog is aggressive and out of control.
 
It should be noted, that leash corrections are also not a CM exclusive method. []
 
 
 
 

To me the Alpha roll is so "old school' and "antiquated" way of thinking its beyond discussion, but since you insist.
 
Did you know?  The alpha roll was first widely popularized by The Monks of New Skete; in the 1976 in there book "How To Be Your Dog's Best Friend".  Job Michael Evans, a former monk, has since apologized for it.
 
Despite the dangers, a few trainers (rarely behaviorists) still use the alpha roll or recommend its use.  As I think we all know, it should never be used by inexperienced trainers or dog owners, and never to correct undesired behavior caused by the dog's failure to understand your command. This will increase anxiety in the dog.  The Monks have admitted that there assessment over the years and they used this method in all aspects of there training had proven that used in a controlled way and coupled with praise and rewards when the dog changes his behavior appropriately, it may have some very short-term positive effect, but there are better and safer alternatives.  And..  If the alpha roll appears to have any positive effect, it is usually due to the fear it instills in the dog rather than establishing true dominance. An animal controlled by fear can become anxious, emotionally unstable, and unpredictable. The dog will learn that using violence is acceptable behavior and may attack people or animals he perceives as being weak when you are not around.
 
In nature, an alpha animal does not maintain its position by fear and violence because an alpha is a parental figure. It is scientifically in accurate that wolves force other pack members to submit. Instead, they control the resources as a human parent does with their children. None of which require force.
 
Alternatives like controlling feedings and using NILIF is a great example.
 
1.     Your dog can perform commands, tricks or simply wait patiently for their food.
2.     Control attention by not allowing the dog to demand petting or play.
3.     Control access to furniture by only allowing access on invitation, or not at all.
4.     Control freedom in the home by requiring the dog to sit and wait at doorways (if they sit and wait first, it is not important who goes through first, since the dog is already under your control), stay on a bed or specific area during mealtimes, when visitors are over, etc.
5.     Train, train and train some more.
6.     Enrolling in a group class exposes the dog to an increasing level of distractions, where they learn to look to you for direction. That is the mark of a real leader.
7.     Like Spiritdogs always says; positive does not mean permissive. Set boundaries and rules and stick with them.
 
 

ORIGINAL: JM

It is not an assumption.  After 12 years, I know my dog. No strange animal nor human would alpha roll him.  No if and or buts about it.

It's lunch time so I'll make this quick. Knowing your dog is one thing, knowing what I can or can't do, is infact a assumtion on your part.

I think it is dangerous to promote the ideal that all dogs can be alpha rolled.  We have quite a few "younger" folks come in to this forum with "mouthy" dogs who could end up without a face for doing it to the wrong dog.

I've yet to meet the dog I couldn't do it too, regardless of breed or size. Did you see me suggest anyone try it? So does this help.

I am a professional and know what I'm doing, PLEASE do not try the things I mention that I do without seeking the help or advise of a professional.

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

Despite the dangers, a few trainers (rarely behaviorists) still use the alpha roll or recommend its use.

I've found through personal experience and not what I read anywhere, that many of those that don't use it simply don't know how to do it correctly. That's something to take into account.

By the way, it's been some time sinse I've read their book, and I'll be more than happy to research it myself sinse that what I tell others to do, but could you show me where TMONS say it's a bad thing to do.

This was my whole point.  You haven't met the dog yet.  But.... the dogs do exist.

Say for instance you go into a home for a consult and they tell you..."absolutely no alpha rolls", it is probably for your own safety.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog


I've yet to meet the dog I couldn't do it too, regardless of breed or size.

I've found through personal experience and not what I read anywhere, that many of those that don't use it simply don't know how to do it correctly. That's something to take into account.

   Right way, wrong way? Timing may be a factor, but regardless it is a psychological detriment to the dog, no matter how you do it.   

By the way, it's been some time sinse I've read their book, and I'll be more than happy to research it myself sinse that what I tell others to do, but could you show me where TMONS say it's a bad thing to do.

You should pick up the new addition and the subsequent books and DVD the Monks have published.

Before Job Michael Evans died (co author) he explains why those techniques appeared to give them the results they wanted and why they believed in their techniques but how they learned that by developing "relationships” that were not fear based proved to be more powerful of a tool than to lay down a dog and after many years of teaching and training they learned by "eliminating” that one aspect they developed  long lasting results and bonds with their dogs that was missing before.   Job's beliefs clearly come through in his collection of essays and vignettes.

"One of the goals of this series is to inspire owners to take the time necessary for building a healthy relationship with their dogs. By presenting a unique vision of the human/dog bond, we seek to both alert and motivate owners to explore the deeper dimensions present in a relationship with a dog ..."    Monks of New Skete

I've yet to meet the dog I couldn't do it too, regardless of breed or size. Did you see me suggest anyone try it? So does this help.

  So that shows experience?  Why would you want to?

I am a professional and know what I'm doing

 really?  Since you brought it up, how about sharing with us your professional credentials?  Do you have any kind of apprenticeship?  Do you have dog behavior studies?   Do you have a business?  How about a website we can check out?  Do you actively train dogs?  What is the methods you teach?
 

 LEASE do not try the things I mention that I do without seeking the help or advice of a professional.

  Thank you Cesar.[] 
 
Here is the problem I have with MANY posts.  Those of us who are regulars here have learned to weed out the propaganda and choose methods and solid advise that work for us and our dogs.  So be it coercion of some kind of +R or combination.
 
The problem is with the lurkers who comes here with real issues and who are desperately seeking advice.  Those same people see those who state "I am a professional” and will latch onto your every word that I personally don't see as always being good advise. 
 
I have also learned from posting here for as long as I have that the "Newbies” who do not come here for advise typically come onto these forums full force and full of "absolutes” – debates and arguments and good discussion and advise is seldom offered - rare. and far and few between.  They only post to threads where they can challenage or debate and seldom post advise to those who need it.
 
I do hope that as a professional you continue to conduct yourself as one and keep the best interest of those who come here to seek help at the forefront of your debates and opinions and hopefully guide them in the most humane and safe way you can.